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Are You Kidding Me

The Government has stepped in & banned Staples from buying Office Depot due to the fact it would cause a monopoly in the office supplies industry. Have any of them looked at the AGR industry? We are the outsiders when it come to Government laws and regulations apparently.

Re: Are You Kidding Me

SGlass,
Glass industry is far from a Monopoly otherwise the government would be in it just like Staples and Office Depot. There is your proof.

Re: Are You Kidding Me

Ty, the AGR industry is indeed not a monopoly. However what you offer as proof-- the fact that the government has not stepped in--- is absolutely ridiculous.

Obama has obviously ordered the FBI to tread lightly on Hillary. So no indictment yet makes her pure as the driven snow?

In Chicago where a cop murdered a guy on tape, da maya of Chitown, the dishonorable sycophant of Obama and his former fart catcher, Rahm Emanuel, sat on that tape for a year after paying off the victim's family $5 mil so as not to screw up his own mayoral re-election--- the U.S. justice department is now only investigating the police department. But Obama obviously ordered the justice department to stay away from Emanuel. So no indictment yet makes him pure as the driven snow?

My dear Ty-- you are naive son.

Re: Are You Kidding Me

Ty, I not only agree with xn as to your naivete, but also disagree with your conclusion.

Currently the DOJ as well as most State powers that be have been bamboozled by Safelite and their powerful lobbyists and law firms into believing that participation in Safelite's network is completely voluntary and therefore represents nothing more than pro-competitive collaboration between competitors. However, according to the DOJ's own guidelines on pro-competitive collaboration, such collaboration enduring for more than ten years suggests that a merger has occurred. If one takes all the Safelite Network participants that have participated for ten years or more, I believe it would prove that Safelite has indeed achieved monopoly power and we all know that they abuse that power on a daily basis.

Also, if one treats the third party auto glass claims administration business as a separate industry, I feel that if the DOJ would do its job, they would conclude that Safelite has achieved monopoly power in that industry as well by virtue of the fact that they have contracted with 18-20 of the top 25 auto insurers and fleet management companies. I actually believe that Safelite is actually dominating each and every auto insurer with whom they are contracted. Each auto insurer and fleet manager that has contracted with Safelite, has essentially contracted with a service provider to settle their auto glass claims. That represents a huge conflict of interest and should not be permitted. If the DOJ was on the ball they would be requiring the Safelite Group, Inc. to spin-off their TPA division.

I also believe that the pendulum will soon swing in the opposite direction. Unfortunately, it may not happen before I retire. The wheels of justice indeed turn slowly.......

Re: Are You Kidding Me

it is possible that the wheels would turn fast were there fewer believers in the "good" vs "bad" TPA. No TPA is Acceptable. No form of Steering is Acceptable. Those who just want to go along to get along (with the resistance of jello) are enablers.

Re: Are You Kidding Me

IF everyone got off the "network" it would be a monopoly. But everyone loves the benefits!!!

Re: Are You Kidding Me

What benefits?

Re: Are You Kidding Me

bob, I am guessing that the "benefits" .02 is talking about is the very low paying referral a shop gets instead of a reasonable fee for the work out in a part of the woods where a shop would absolutely collect a reasonable fee if there were no networks or network participants because the network administer doesn't have its own shops cause if it did, its own shop would have done the job in the first place instead of some poor sap like .02!! Whew.

Merry Christmas!

Re: Are You Kidding Me

I understand the difference between influence and monopoly.


You will not win a thing when what you think you are against is something different entirely and your hate doesn't let you see it.

Re: Are You Kidding Me

Ty
I understand the difference between influence and monopoly.


You will not win a thing when what you think you are against is something different entirely and your hate doesn't let you see it.

I'm curious, what exactly is your position of employment in the Bel/Safe organization?

Re: Are You Kidding Me

TY,

It only takes 70% of market share to have monopoly power. Add up all safelite providers to all the safelite network participants that have been on the network for ten years and see what you get. My guess is more than 70% in most if not all markets......

Go back and read my previous post.

Re: Are You Kidding Me

Sarcasm, boys! Never have been on the network, never will be........There are "no" benefits............ What I was referring to was how networks operate. How can there be a monopoly when shops voluntarily join?? The shops on the network out number there own shops!!

Re: Are You Kidding Me

$.02
Sarcasm, boys! Never have been on the network, never will be........There are "no" benefits............ What I was referring to was how networks operate. How can there be a monopoly when shops voluntarily join?? The shops on the network out number there own shops!!


Dear $.02,

Voluntarily? If shops do not sign on the dotted line, they fight an up hill battle. Bel/Safe has the power to cast aspersions about those shops that do not sign, regarding their lack of position on the "preferred list" and the fact that their insurers will not warranty the work (???). They can even threaten policyholders with possible "out of pocket expenses" if they do not allow themselves to be steered to a Safelite Network Participant!

As I explained in my previous post, Bel/Safe's powerful lobbyists and law firms have succeeded in duping the regulators into thinking that participation in the Safelite network is nothing more than pro-competitive collaboration. However, the regulators need to take a closer look because "pro-competitive collaboration" that lasts for more than 10 years is the same as if a merger has taken place. In other words, all the non-Safelite shops that have joined the Safelite network and have stayed for 10 years or more, are deemed to have become part of Safelite. So Safelite, in collusion with auto insurers, has successfully achieved monopoly power both, in the auto glass claims administration and the auto glass repair and replacement industries.

Re: Are You Kidding Me

It is always funny to see people wildly speculate the amount of business a company has or doesn't have when they don't work for that company.
As the above guy said the hate makes you speculate and say what you THINK you have as fact. But the truth wouldn't allow you to hate so much.

Here is the truth, then you can search on your own if you are smart?? the amount of business they DO have (it is far less than 70%).
but I will not do your work for you, research it go look for it BEFORE you toss out a figure.
But I think it is much easier for most to not work hard and point the finger and say.. hey look here comes the bad guy they are the reason I am not successful.
The rhetoric here is quite pathetic as always

it reminds me of a court case where a person says with conviction that person committed a crime "I am sure so and so did it".
Then the DNA provides the truth

Daveycrewcut your so called "guess" here will be the truth someone tosses out next week on this forum or some place else.

pathetic

Re: Are You Kidding Me

Davey, Davey, Davey

We have never been on the "network". The big one doesn't scare us. We advertise, educate "OUR" customers as to what happens when we have to call in a claim. We provide a great service at a reasonable cost. Since all the acquisitions have taken place we have only seen growth. We have diversified, changed our advertising techniques and business practices. All this because of the monster. Times have changed, just as in any business! Roll with the punches, duck the hooks or stand there and cry about how much they hurt!

Re: Are You Kidding Me

POD,
You still don't get it. I am not talking about just Safelite's percentage. I am talking about Safelite's percentage plus the percentage of all the work done by independents that participate in Safelite's network. When you add it all up, what do you get? I know that Safelite AutoGlass shops are less than 20% of all the total. But when one figures in all the business done by them and those participating in the Safelite Network, I think my figure would be very close if not low.

As far as the claims administration industry goes, I also believe that Safelite Solutions has achieved 70%+ market share of that industry. Let's let the officials make the calculations and then do something about it. If only they would.

If your company has been "collaborating" as a Safelite Network participant for 10 yrs or more, then your company is part of Safelite. How else could Safelite advertise on National TV that they can service 90%+ of the driving public? Noway unless their collaborators are included.

$.02,
You asked, "How can there be a monopoly when shops voluntarily join??" I tried to explain.

Re: Are You Kidding Me

pretty sure "saflite has distribution(service glass)installation(safelite autoglass)and insurance billing/claim handling(sgc network) unless their is another branch of autoglass im pretty sure they hav a hand in it all correct sooooooo wouldnt it technicaly make it a monopoly hmmmmmm oh yeah they have different names so its not monopoly !!! give me a break they line the pockets they need to period we small guys will have to just deal with it or get out it sucks but that just the way it is

Re: Are You Kidding Me

I have been on both sides of the fence. Not only as a SL installer, But also as a Manager. Safelite in general has a vision to set the standards for the Automotive Glass Industry. I have seen the tactics preached to steer customers, and seen first hand the strategic plans moving forward in this business.

And being on the other side, I have had customers come to my shop, we call make the call to assist in setting up the claim, and watch the customer argue with Safelite Solutions because Sl told them they couldn't use us, even though we are in the network.

Its aggravating to see the %47-50 off NAGS from Safelite solutions, and get full list on other claims. Reality is it has always been this way, this is nothing new. Eventually they are going to split off and start over again under a new name.

I have also seen Safelite purchase many companies over the years that were going bankrupt. Although I don't completely agree with all of the things Safelite does, I think overall they do more good than they do wrong.

Technology is constantly changing, and Belron Corp invest billions of dollars to improve technology in installation, tools, and training. Not to mention the Million's of dollars that is contributed back to charitable organizations.

How many other glass companies out there do you know are in the business for more than just making a quick dollar? I for one have not seen any in the twenty years that ive been in this business.

I don't work for them due to the way the market was being ran. I got tired of seeing technicians being blamed for everything. But that is just the market I was in. I believe that Safelite as a whole just wants to set the bar for the Automotive industry.

I can safely say, that from my experience, most of the people that gripe about Safelite being the big bad wolf, doesn't need to be doing glass anyways. Ive seen the poor installations, no rust treatment, not primed installs, and the installers that have been doing it wrong from the get go because that's how they were taught.

Yes Safelite Group/ Belron has a huge hold in ths industry, but I ask you this, If you had the opportunity to grow would you make the same investments as Safelite group? Would you invest in charity? Would you invest and contribute back to the industry like them? Or would you just strictly go for the quick buck and move on AKA tailgate installer.

I don't dislike Safelite as a whole, just don't agree with everything they do. Opportunity is out there, growth is there, potential is there, just do your best and make the best with what you have.

Re: Are You Kidding Me

Davey,

i need documentation showing safelites death grip on insurance companies.

where can i get a list of the insurance companies that are locked in to
contracts with TPAs? You always mention safelite has the majority, i
need to see the number and the ones with each tpa to demonstrate what
you are saying. Where is a list of this information compiled?

i need the documentation for an upcoming hearing, the participants are
not in auto related fields, i need clear numbers. can you help with that?

Re: Are You Kidding Me

I can only think of one major auto insurer that is not using a TPA for auto glass claims-Travelers and they were one of the signers of the 1963 Consent Decree.

Re: Are You Kidding Me

Funny thing is you are all saying Safelite has the monopoly when they only get about 10% to 20% of the business in the markets they are located in for glass business... Plus they don't do flat glass so you have a larger demographic.

PGW has its hands in claims and wholesale are they also a monopoly prospect? Guardian used to control the market for rv claims where they a monopoly?

Really people work hard, build your brand, stop digging on the competition, and make your company different from the others out there and you will build your business. Read what jack welsh said at auto glass week and apply that to your business!!!!

Re: Are You Kidding Me

Safelite does not have a monopoly; per se. what they have is influence over pricing, though their tpa. They have a vertical integration using predatory pricing manipulating the market. Safelite is progressing to the point where they control the supply chain as well as the retail end of the market, which they have demonstrated control through their acquisitions of companies who have lost the ability to compete due to the predatory pricing.

It is ignorant to believe hard work alone will overcome the deck stacked against us. Welsh would have us believe that doing better quality work and out servicing the competition, will result in bigger profit. Most of us already out service/out quality the industry "leader". When billing goes through safelite, and legislation provides the insurer the opportunity to short pay, where does that leave us?

Lets challenge your hero Welsh, Lets see if he can make a small fortune in the auto glass industry, in order to do that he would have to start with a large fortune. Let him start as a one man operation and build it from there. Does he have experience billing through his competitor, highly doubtful. If you don't have control over your pricing, do you really own a business?

here is a little about our Hero.

Through the 1980s, Welch sought to streamline GE. Welch pioneered a policy of informality at the work place, allowing all employees to have a small business experience at a large corporation. Welch worked to eradicate perceived inefficiency by trimming inventories and dismantling the bureaucracy that had almost led him to leave GE in the past. He closed factories, reduced pay rolls and cut lackluster units. Each year, Welch would fire the bottom 10% of his managers, regardless of absolute performance. He was dubbed "Neutron Jack" (in reference to the neutron bomb) for eliminating employees while leaving buildings intact.[17] In Jack: Straight From The Gut, Welch states that GE had 411,000 employees at the end of 1980, and 299,000 at the end of 1985. Of the 112,000 who left the payroll, 37,000 were in businesses that GE sold, and 81,000 were reduced in continuing businesses. According to Business Week, critics of Welch have questioned whether the pressure he places on employees may have led them to "cut corners", which may have contributed to controversies over defense-contracting, or the Kidder, Peabody & Co. bond-trading scheme in the early 1990s.

By a show of hands, can i see how many of us are running a bloated business, where we can close factories, reduce payroll, and cut lackluster units? How many have to much inventory, bureaucracy?


I applaud those who direct bill, we can learn more from one direct biller than a hundred Welsh type experts who only know about influence peddling, and building teams in industries that set their own pricing. Not to say your employees shouldn't be a team, this is about pricing not a shop being a well oiled machine.

Re: Are You Kidding Me

See the problem is you have this idea where you don't see the opportunity in the business. I have seen one man shows all around do very well. One example is 2014 of dec a shop mobile only opened up with 5 grand in his account and last year made 450k in a market area that is exposed to be a 10 million dollar annual market. I know other one man shows that do good as well. Problem with everyone here is that guess what insurance companies want to make money so they want who ever works with claims for the insurance companies to cut cost or they will find someone who will.

Lynx, guardian claim service, Safelite are all in this to make successful companies well guardian didn't want to follow with what insurance companies wanted and that was cutting cost and what happened? They lost the battle. Lynx is a company who has been cutting rates like crazy. Did you know chip repairs are cheaper through Lynx than Safelite solutions? Did you know Lynx has cut its nags pricing to 30 sometimes 40 percent off nags on some vehicles? I have personally been screwed lately more and more by Lynx than any other glass claims out there.

All I'm saying is look insurance companies big or small want to cut the cost per claim to make more money and become a large company. They will find someone to do it even if it meant leaving a claim solutions company.

Now you guys talk about steering. Did you want to be given claims out of the thin air? Well Safelite in its program cycles through all the perfered shops and gives claims out. Everyone I know that's perfered gets that call saying this customer needs glass done and here is the refferal. So understand this you will get paid less and less yes mainly because you have independent shops out that that slap glass in for so cheap you understand why they drive a 1980 van to do glass in. If people continue to lose the value in what good installers do then there is no purpose to charge a reasonable cost because people destroyed the business. You see what I am saying? Why would insurance companies want to pay more when they can pay less no matter what you say you know I am right. Get the big brother thing off your chest and fight for your market area to get glass back to being what it should be a valuable service just not something you can go to harbor freight and buy some tools and do it yourself.

Last question for you. How would you run things different from the way Lynx/Safelite does it and be able to keep those insurance companies?

A friend of mine asked me this question and made me respect them more as a company because I thought if I was in that position what would I do to keep the cost per claim down when new windshields are as expensive as they are.

Re: Are You Kidding Me

Steering. You mean when the insured selects our shop and the tpa takes the job away based on price alone? You don't see a problem with that? Has the look of interference to me. All tpa's are the devil, please don't think just one is being singled out.

sooner or later those one man shows won't get the same number of jobs done in a day, and their views will change; Mine has.


put my self in the shoes of lynx, no thanks, have no desire to screw other people for a living. we worked to build up a customer base, only to see it taken away by pimps and prostitutes on price because they are unable to compete head to head on quality and service. No respect is due the tpa, look forward to seeing what they do when they hit bottom and can't go lower, then what? They may be close, all the acquisitions haven't shown an increase in profit on the balance sheet, increase in numbers maybe but not cash. Not really a winning formula, for anybody.

Re: Are You Kidding Me

hound dog,

what kind of hearing? email me at info@glassinspections.com
We might be able to help.

Re: Are You Kidding Me

xn
Ty, the AGR industry is indeed not a monopoly.


That's right, it's an oligopoly.

"An oligopoly (from Ancient Greek ὀλίγος (olígos), meaning "few", and πωλεῖν (polein), meaning "to sell") is a market form in which a market or industry is dominated by a small number of sellers (oligopolists). Oligopolies can result from various forms of collusion which reduce competition and lead to higher prices for consumers. Oligopoly has its own market structure.[1]"

Re: Are You Kidding Me

Monopoly, oligopoly, monopsony, ect ect, none matter.

The issue is how long an entity, or group of entities, is allowed to hide behind the "we hold prices down for consumers", when they not only benefit monetarily from such practices, but have no authority to do so, and the folks they claim to be doing it "for", have no authority to do so either, and are not, in fact, "buyers of goods" either, and accepting no liability for the consequences of their actions, save for the monetary benefits, to wit no one has ever proven are being passed down to consumers in the form of "lower rates", anyway.

Truly, this has to be the biggest farce of the "emperor's new clothes" ever pulled off by anyone in history.

Further still, when did our industry become subject to any actions designed and intended to subsidize the insurance industry, or the consuming public as a whole, in any case? Who is "subsidizing" the glass industry for subsidizing the TPA's and insurers that are supposedly passing these "cost savings back to consumers"? Anyone have a clue?

Competition is gone, because everyone is reduced to the lowest common denominator of price, a price that is always based on the lowest cost parts, materials, and labor.

With that simplicity, even if someone came up with a system that guaranteed a 110% safe, quality, proper installation system 110% of the time, couldn't implement and be paid for such even if it cost the consumer 10% more.

Instead, we're stuck with 1970's based FMVSS compliance rules, and ambigious "customer satisfaction ratings", or CSI "Customer Service Indexes" as the only means to prop up the current status quo, and these are done by folks that either benefit from those surveys or ratings, or by consumer's that don't know a safe and proper installation from a bad one, unless it leaks.

Simply put, when will this industry realize that the Emperor isn't really wearing any clothes at all, let alone new ones?

As always, JMHNLO.

Re: Are You Kidding Me

Well put Mark. And thanks for writing in proper English.

Re: Are You Kidding Me

Some glass dude
Funny thing is you are all saying Safelite has the monopoly when they only get about 10% to 20% of the business in the markets they are located in for glass business... Plus they don't do flat glass so you have a larger demographic.

PGW has its hands in claims and wholesale are they also a monopoly prospect? Guardian used to control the market for rv claims where they a monopoly?

Really people work hard, build your brand, stop digging on the competition, and make your company different from the others out there and you will build your business. Read what jack welsh said at auto glass week and apply that to your business!!!!


I guess, some glass dude, hasn't heard that PGW sold Lynx to Solara and that Solara has been acquired by another concern.

I guess, some glass dude, hasn't heard that Safelite is trying to administer glass claims for home insurers (flat glass). If they succeed in getting those TPA contracts, do you think they won't be getting into that business too?

Re: Are You Kidding Me

I have stayed away from posting here for a long time because it produces NOTHING! Too many dumb sticks who have no clue. anyway Davey, I will disagree with your last statement. Stinklite will never compete in residential glass because they cannot deliver the quality or the time to do the work. First off they do not have the trained professionals to do the proper work.

Second, Most all homeowner insurance has way to high of a deductible to cover the occasional rock, baseball, or gunshot to cover the loss. And in most case where the damage is more it is a warranted issue from the window manufacturer.

Harmon and others have tried and fail BIG TIME. Stinklite is making a killing on auto glass they will not lose their butts on places where true professionals maintain.

In other words most ALL residential glazers know,,,,, bill the customer,, let them deal with the crap ass insurance company, they quickly learn how crappy their ins co. is really? game over,,,,,,, it will not happen as you say!

Re: Are You Kidding Me

Right answer again Right Answer.

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