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How can we all sit back and ignore the fact that the NAGS rebalance has been a total disaster? Many blame the networks, agent steering and "low ballers". Yes these are definitely a problem but NAGS is also a problem. Jesse Herrera preached to us for 6 months that it was going to be "revenue neutral". "BS", it is far from it.
The ins. industry has used it to their advatage: Progressive 48% off, Am. Fam 39% off, Farmers 35% off. Herrera said there would be more of a focus on labor, guess what many are now paying flat rates of $40 and $50. Is it a sucess that insurers pay 48% off when others are at +140%, to me that is a big problem.
Wholesalers still sell us glass at the old NAGS list price, ex: FW2455 old list $2,375, new $234. With the 3rd update recently released we move further away. Herrera said "this will elimate net prices." There are more than ever!!
NAGS is not the root cause but they are big factor. I would like to see the IGA push Jesse for answers as it is getting bad!
As I have been reading these comments the glassbytes forum for the last couple of months, I have found one person "Jesse" that is standing up. I don't understand why everyone just sits back and takes this abuse. Look at Minnesota glass shops and see what they have done. I currently am taking a ins. company to small claims, when this is done I will take the next and the next and the next. Unfortunetly, one shop or two can't change the industry. Words are cheap, action is time consuming and unknown. If we want to be in business now is the time to fight.
1. CHANGE THE WAY YOU BILL USE GM'S LIST PRICE OR PPG'S LIST. (I DID NOT SIGN ANY CONTRACT WITH SAFELITE STATING I WOULD USE NAGS.)
2.BILL CASH CUSTOMERS THE SAME WAY. (THIS IS WHAT THE INS CO.'S SEE AND CAN YOU BLAME THEM. I WOULD FEEL LIKE I WAS GETTING SCREWED IF I WERE THEM)
3. IN SHOP OR ADDING A MOBILE FEE ARE NOT DIRTY WORDS. A TIRE SHOP I WAS AT YESTERDAY CHARGES A $45.00 MOBILE FEE OR TRIP CHARGE AS THEY CALLED IT. THE CUSTOMER DIDN'T EVEN FLINCH THOUGHT THAT WAS REASONABLE, BUT NOT IN THIS INDUSTRY EVERYONE IS SCARED BECAUSE THEIR COMPETITOR DOESN'T CHARGE IT. BUT ONCE IT DOES CATCH ON................
4. BE PROFFESIONAL (THE GUY IN THE VAN DOING INSTALLS FOR FIFTY BUCKS IS JUST THAT.... THE GUY IN THE VAN DOING THINGS FOR FIFTY BUCKS... EVERY SERVICE INDUSTRY HAS THESE GUYS ALWAYS DID ALWAYS WILL.)
NOW I HAVE THIS OFF MY CHEST I WILL GO BACK TO WORK. TREAT MY CUSTOMERS RIGHT AND KEEP UP THE FIGHT FOR TRUE "FAIR AND REASONABLE PRICING"
Maybe the IGA should invite Jesse Herrera back to the next IGA conference to answer these questions. He was anxious to sell us on the rebalance before it took place. Where is he now? We're left holding the bag for their mistake and the ins. companies and the tpa's love it.
If you were him, would you want to go stand up in front of a room full of independents?
I was just looking at the seminar schedule for the IGA show March 1 - 3 (IGA Seminars/Schedule of Events) and didn't see any related to NAGS. A representative from NEON will be there to discuss collecting those outstanding invoices.
Geroge I AGREE WITH YOU. I KNOW YOU WILL ALWAYS HAVE THESE GUYS THAT WORK OUT OF THEIR HOME/VAN AND DONT HAVE ANY CLUE ABOUT RUNNING A BUSINESS, ONLY HOW TO MAKE A FAST BUCK!! WE WENT OUT ON A JOB THAT ONE OF THESE GUYS DID THE OTHER DAY, HIS WINDSHIELD LEAKED IN 3 PLACES, HE TRIED TO CALL THE COMPANY BACK AND THEY DONT RETURN THE CALL, I TOLD THE CUSTOMER GOOD THING HE DID NOT HAVE AN ACCIDENT. LOOK I CAN PUSH IT OUT WITH ONE HAND. TOO SCRAY. SO THESE GUYS THAT THINK THEY ARE HELPING, I HOPE THEY READ THIS. I WOULD LIKE TO SEND THEM THE BILL THEY NEED TO GET OUT OF BUSINESS!! BUT AGAIN, THIS IS NICE TO BEABLE TO VENT, BUT WE DO NEED TO STAND UP AND TAKE ACTION NOT JUST TALK ABOUT IT HERE.
How is that a step towards realistic pricing? NAGS is not based on our aquisition cost, nor is it accepted by our suppliers. How can it be used as an accurate guide to pricing if many list prices are lower than my acquisition prices, and you jackels want a discount?!!! NAGS is an insurance industry tool to lower insurance industry costs, nothing more. Now we have deflated prices and token labor allowances. I see your point. Things are much better.
YOU ARE PARTIALLY CORRECT, BUT WITH NAGS WHY DO THE POPULAR PARTS ALWAYS SEEM TO GO DOWN THE ODD PARTS GO UP? I DID MY COMPARISIONS ON THE POPULAR PARTS AND THEY ACTUALLY WENT DOWN AN AVERAGE OF $2.00.AND NOW THE INSURANCE CO.'S WANT DEEPER DISCOUNTS? WE BOTH KNOW THE SYSTEM. IF THE INSURES ARE BEHIND NAGS AND THAT IS WHAT THEY WANT US TO USE WHY KEEP *******ISING THE SYSTEM. I ADMIT, AS IN THE PAST, CASH PRICING IS THE ROOT OF THIS EVIL AND I WOULD BE ANGRY IF I WAS THE INSURER. WHEN REPUTIBLE SHOPS AND BUSINEES POEPLE REALIZE THIS THE PRICING MAY BALANCE. UNFORTUNETLY ONE OF THE TPA'S SET FAIR AND RESEASONABLE PRICING FOR US YET SELL GLASS TO FLEET, CAR DEALERS FOR A WHOLE LOT LESS THEN THEY CHARGE INSURERS AND WE GET CAUGHT IN THE CROSSFIRE. I ONLY WISH I HAD THE CAPITAL TO GO CORPORATE TO CORPORATE WITH MY STORIES OF 2000+ SHOPS IN MY NETWORK, STEER CUSTOMERS, CALL CUSTOMERS OF OTHER SHOPS TO SEE IF THEY ARE HAPPY AND THEN USE THIS INFO TO PORTRAY JUST HOW SATISFIED THEY ARE WITH OUR (MY) WORK WHEN ALL THEY DO IS THE BILLING. BEST THING TO HAPPEN IS WE ALL QUIT USING THIRD PARTIES FOR BILLING PERIOD. I NEED TO CHECK ON THE PRIVACY LAWS IN MY STATE JUST AS THE INSURERS USE. I DON'T THINK MY CUSTOMER BASE OR PRICING INFORMATION SHOULD BE USED AGAINST ME TPA'S. I COULD GO ON AND ON BUT AS PER MY LAST POST IT IS TIME TO DO SOMETHIMNG ABOUT IT. THIS SYSTEM STINKS, THE DECK IS STACKED IN FAVOR OF THE INSURERS AND WE ALL KNOW IT. UNFORTUNITLY I KNOW IT IS STACKED AS DOES EVERY OTHER GLASS SHOP IN THE BUSINESS, BUT IT IS MY FAULT I AM THE ONE WHO KEEPS PLAYING WITH MY PAIR OF DUECES WHEN I CAN SEE YOU ARE PLAYING WITH FIVE ACES. ONCE AGAIN, SHAME ON ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I just want to point something out to you and hope it will make you at least think more on the NAGS situation.
My auto glass supplier no longer maintains ANY information on NAGS. They have cancelled their subscription to Mitchell Int'l's services all-together and do not purchase NAGS price books.
When I am invoiced for auto glass, NAGS information is nowhere to be found.
From my supplier's standpoint, NAGS no longer exists; NAGS has become COMPLETELY irrelevant to them. What I am charged for auto glass is determined just like if I am buying flat glass.
FYI, what I charge for auto glass (parts, materials, labor) will be determined just like when I am selling flat glass. I will calculate what I NEED TO CHARGE FOR A FAIR PROFIT and I will report any problems I encounter to the state.
What you don't understand is that there is not 1 wholesaler in the entire country that is selling glass based upon the rebalance price. You have insurance companies all accross the board in reimbursements. I believe your rates are NAGS list and a company such as USAA is at NAGS + 140%. Why are your prices 140% lower than USAA. This is not consisitent, this is a total mess. If glass shops are buying glass at the old rebalance price then why should we be subject to discounts off of rebalance. This would be a success if everyone was on the same page, but no one is.
I think we all appreciate Hal having the stones to convey his thoughts here, but bottom line is this shows all of us how incredibly out of touch the TPA's and insurance companies are with reality.
Hal: How is this "fair"?: DB10720 YPN NAGS List is $216.15, American Family at 40% off comes to $129.69, my cost from Pilkington or PPG is $170.00 (now that Independent Glass is gone, the only two options here). I don't care if we get 500 bucks to install it, why should we ever, ever sell a part or a razor blade or a roll of toilet paper back to you guys at less than we paid? I would love to hear your explanation but I already know what it is..i.e., revenue neutrality.
The concept of the rebalance is fine. The problem is, the rebalanced list has little or no correlation to the value of the part.
This is not a kneejerk comment, I have reams of information to back it up.
To be a fair negotiating tool, any benchmark (by definition) must correlate to some reality in the market. The rebalanced NAGS does not do this. I can cite numerous examples of situtations where a part is truly "worth" within pennies of another, yet has a benchmark price that varies by 40%.
The argument has been made by NAGS that their benchmarks are based on what is happening in the market, but they fail to produce any relevant statistical data to support their model, data collection methods, or end results. The simple truth is, the market is leveraged into using a price with no root connection to a meaningful basis to determine a selling price. Over multiple pricing cycles, the process will lead to regressed market prices, without correlation to true part acquisition cost. This isn't voodoo, it is reality, and it is documented.
I respect the fact that you adress comments on this board and speak your mind. Frankly, accepting the "company line" that NAGS puts out is selling yourself short and hurting your credibility with the industry. It doesn't take a lot to see through the rhetoric. If you have any doubts, ask NAGS for a detailed explanation of their sampling methods; then ask how they are sure that they accurately reflect the true activity in the market. You will get generatlities only.
Better yet look at a FW2455. Buying it off old list of $2,375 getting paid 40% off the new list of $234, yet you can send all the paperwork you have to Safelite and they won't pay a dime more than 40% off.
Hal your company used to pay 50% off the old NAGS, now you are at 0% off the new. Using the conversion table provided by NAGS to be equal you would need to be at NAGS plus 54%. State Auto is paying substantially less for glass as a result of the rebalance and you say NAGS isn't the issue. The insurer's including you Hal have used this to your advantage when NAGS preached for month "REVENUE NEUTRAL". I can take a State Auto invoice for the same part billed on 2/27/05 and one billed on 3/1/05 and it would be substanitally less.
Anyone ever consider a class action against NAGS?? I am not advocating this, but why not?
Why it is the insurers use NAGS when no one in the AGR industry does, except glass shops who are forced to display it on their invoices in an effort to simply match the dispatch and avoid rejected invoices (not that it helps)I do not understand. Displaying NAGS data does not mean we use NAGS data in a true business sense. Nothing in our industry relates to NAGS any longer, it is simply a means to display data, a format in my opinion.
Why not force NAGS to once and for all release how they come up with their pricing? Show the industry and the legal channels why a list (benchmark) price is where it is and at the same time they can gain respect and credibility within the entire AGR industry?
If an entire industry is controlled (benchmark is only a CYA term) by NAGS calculators, isn't it reasonable to ask a judge to get them to provide the data, etc. they use to determine the list price? If they truly have a formula and the data to prove it what not cough it up and show everyone that indeed they are legitimate and there is nothing going on? I think we all might know why.
I am not blaming NAGS for all the ills of the AGR industry. As in any industry there are multiple issues from time to time, but NAGS has most certainly not succeeded in the "re-balance" as most of us understood it.
NAGS data is not any closer to reality than current fuel charges are. There is several labor times listed that make all of us scratch our heads, either to low, or some to high for the job at hand.
I certainly understand your concern. Remember that I represent only my insurance company rather than the industry at large. When I speak with the 4 major domestic manufacturers, I am told that the NAGS list is realistic for most applications.
For those other applications where NAGS doesn't work, we allow a 25% mark up + labor, kit, mldgs.
We are almost 1 year post rebalance and the new system appears to be working. Sure, it needs some polishing, but it is working.
Hal you avoided the point that your company is paying substantially less per windshield. How did you determine the price of full rebalanced NAGS when a "revenue neutral" approach would have been plus 50%? Your net payment per claim is substantially less as a result.
well thanks hal for setting all of us auto glass peasants straight. i didn't realize how stupid all of us are. but when you give your final word we all should shut up and move on. right! that's the way you sound. i take offense to your opinions, just as you mine about you being a hired hand who does nothing except set policy on direction of your superiors, you produce nothing, you buy nothing, mark up nothing, pay your expenses, and hope something is left for your family. just shut up and keep going to deposit your undeserving salary on the 1st and the 15th. have a good weekend!
Wasn't there a post somewhere that said "when your ins. agent tells you it is a good policy he means a good policy for him"?
HAL commented "We are almost 1 year post rebalance and the new system appears to be working. Sure, it needs some polishing, but it is working."
Working for who HAL? This is exactly why we all need to stand up and dump the networks. They assume everything is working because many of us are still on them; to afraid to lose referrals that I bet you never get in the first place. Do any of you actually track how many referrals SGC send you that YOU or YOUR CUSTOMER did not initiate? How many referrals does SGC send you that they were truly REFERRING you as the preferred shop?
If the system that HAL likes to mention where he pays you less because his TPA sends you referrals and for that he expects a bigger discount really works, then why are most glass shops not getting SGC referrals that SGC actually initiates? SGC doesn't send us referrals, they simply process claims that we or our existing customers initiate and are then forced into calling SGC.
Is anyone getting tons of SGC referrals because you are the best in town and they want the insured to go to your shop not theirs? Anyone?
i have not signed up for state farms meytrix program, and i explained to the agent my reservations and pricing concerns. He calls the rest of the glass companies in town, and they say to him that state farms pricing is fine.
kind of made me look greedy, really tends to frost a guy, especially when that is not the case.
not all mobile shops do bad work or are bad businessmen some of us have adapted to compete with the big guys. how many nga master techs do you employ?
we are a two man shop both nga master techs. i have been in auto glass since before i was born we don't do installs in poor situations and if we do have a come back they are first on our schedule. we are in a town of less than 6000 people and do 100 to 120 windshields amonth with 3 other glass shops to compete with
Insurance is legalized gambling, and they control the odds. The law has to change . tpa with conflict of intrest have to go. The insurance industry use them to fix prices. They may own NAGS too for all I know . NAGS is useless doesn"t work and I have no acses to their information any more without making phone calls and wasting more time. Speeking of wasted time 2 hours with Gieco and SGN fixing 4 claims only 2 of them got fixed. Then they tell me they don,t know how to fix the other 2. Third attempt. Then No notice to me that they are billable either. I checked the next day and three were billable, resmit everything again,takes everything until I hit the sumit button then I hit the jackpot ALL ENTRYS ERROS, and it fanishes when I attempt to correct? Safelite is broken too. The ins. co. can't even get them to fix it. At least its a setember claim so I can take Gieco to small claims . If on the new contract you have to go to Delare to sue!
we have three large new car dealers which we do all the work for. we live in wyoming and we have wind and extreme temps we also have 6 months months of winter but i guess you know everything about every situation. plus our competition consists of 2 body shops. which are not very proactive in getting sales. if we have a slow day we go to every account we have and b.s. usually we end up with one or two out of that. do the math 100 a is 2 1/2 windshields per day per tech not that busy to me.
i like it in here i have never seen so many experts in their chosen field that don't know how to run their own business but tell others how little they know. my dad owned 2 glass shops in denver and boulder before retiring to wy he owned his for 35 years and did quite well fro himself but never once did he blame a tpa for loss of business or income. neither will i.
Why would he complain about the TPA's, you just stated that you do cash work for 3 dealers? I don't doubt that you do 120 installs a month but have a hard time believing you are doing 120 insurance jobs in a town of 6K.
that is my whole point why depend on insurance work for the majority of your work?
we have diversified so that we don't HAVE to have insurance work to make a good living. we also have the contract for state vehicles, forest service, and blm. the reason we do this is because we go out and meet everyone. we do the cop cars and ambulances just from going OUT and selling.on average we do less that 40 windshields a month from insurance. most of those are from satisfied customers that refer us to friends or another vehicle. we don't waive deductibles which is legal in wyoming. our customers don't even ask for it. i provide a quality service and our customers appreciate it. another thing we started is if a customer refers us to someone else we send them a check for $10.
No, I just noticed that the NGA website only shows 3 MASTER NGA installers in Wyoming and none listed for your company, which I assumed to be Bill's Quality Glass? You may want to contact the NGA about that.
Also, I wanted to congratulate you both on your recent MASTER certifications!!!!
I wish more and more of us would get certified. Not that NGA certification is everything, but it is another step in the right direction.
The NGA website www.glass.org justlook for the "find a technician" link.
I believe it does show that you have a NGA certified installer, at least your company is listed on the "find a tech" link. However, their site only lists names for master installers, and only then with permission I believe.
If you recently became MASTER certified I would give them a few months to get the site updated, but I would keep checking it from time to time. I believe they are doing a large re-working of their site at the moment.
Actually Ralph you might be surprised but I agree with you almost whole-heartedly.
However, from a technician standpoint, I still believe passing the NGA test does give the individual technician something he can be proud of and use a future creditial. It still does mean something, just not nearly what it used to.
I won't even get into all the NGA's problems that is Leo's job I think, besides we have enough issues to deal with these days in the AGR industry.