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I recently acquired a 31 DeVaux coupe and trying to do a VIN verification. I have an old CA registration that hasm a VIN I cant seem to locate on the car. I have found a tag on the firewall and the plate on the floor board but these numbers do not match the paperwork. Is there a VIN somewhere else on these cars? Thanks for any help.
Where Are You From? Elk Grove, Ca
Do You own a car built by Durant? DeVaux
Vin plate is on the toe board and will have 75 as model and vin will start with a C for Oakland (Calif) or M for Grand Rapids (Mich)
Since you are in Calif I assume the coupe will be C - 1001 to C - 4745 made April 15 1931 to plant closing Sept 25 1931.
The firewall tag is the Hayes body tag. So far we have identified these body's. Each body tag will have its own serial number after that three digit one. As an example the only De Vo has this .. 1937 DE-VO C-400 engine Hayes tag 185-3701. VIN plate 1001
Hayes 185 body was used Beacon and Flyer to identify those as 5 passenger 4 door sedans like the De-Vo
The 1932 633 Durant coupe made in Leaside vin L-1001 is a bit different with an S instead of a three digit number and body 651. The other surviving 633 sedan has lost its body tag. Same with the only surviving 1932 685 Frontenac coupe of no tag or vin plate. It might well be the Canadian 633 and 685 were special order and why the S was used or perhaps the 685 Fronty ones had something different. Its all lost in time now.
1931 675 De Vaux
Standard Coupe
Standard Sedan
Sport Coupe 152-
Sport Sedan 150-
Deluxe Coupe 153-
Deluxe Sedan
Custom Coupe 151-
Custom Sedan 154-
1932 680 De Vaux
Standard Coupe
Standard Sedan 166-
Custom Coupe
Custom Sedan
Custom Convertible Coupe 168-
Where Are You From? Ottawa Ont
Do You own a car built by Durant? 1932 Dominion built 614 Sedan
Thank you for the info. Based on those numbers this is a Deluxe Coupe. Just to confirm the body tag four digit number will not match the toe board number? And just to make sure, there are no numbers stamped into the frame?
Where Are You From? Elk Grove, Ca
Do You own a car built by Durant? DeVaux
There is no relation VIN to Hayes body tag. Far as we know none of our cars, Durant, Star, Rugby, De Vaux, Continental, Frontenac, Locomobile, Flint have VIN frame stampings. Loose the vin plate or ownership papers you have no idea what vin was. Sometimes even what model it is or model year. With Billy most but not all the model years are Aug 1st to July 31 of next year, even if car is built in current year.
The CEO of Durant Motors changed that for the 1930 and later vehicles, unless a revision was made to that model. eg 1930 614 Durant is Jan to Dec 31 1930, 1931 is Jan 1 1931 to Jan 31 1932, 1932 is Feb 1st 1932 to end.
Where Are You From? Ottawa Ont
Do You own a car built by Durant? 1932 Dominion built 614 Sedan
Just an idea when you said the number on ownership doesn't match vin plate. Could it be the 40A engine serial number ?
Where Are You From? Ottawa Ont
Do You own a car built by Durant? 1932 Dominion built 614 Sedan
The paperwork is a 40A number, however it does not match the number on the right side of the block which is 40AA600.
Where Are You From? Elk Grove, Ca
Do You own a car built by Durant? DeVaux
Ah ha .... There is casting date / casting info and there is the serial number.
40AA600 is just the casting info and our engines have the extra A. eg the W4 and W5 engines have an A after them in casting. W4A / W5A .. mine the 22A has 22AA head and block with the casting lot numbers different. Unsure where the serial number is on the 675 / 680 on right side. The 22A / 32A have the serial stamped in a boss on the block at back of exhaust manifold area. From the few we have of De Vaux engine serial it appears it would be something like 40A-1-xxxx stamped.
You won't find an engine with date other than 1931 for the 675 / 680 De Vaux and 1933 Ace. The 1931 40A Hall engine, was used in the 1932 680 De Vaux with the Hall name ground off. Ace blocks also carry the 40A casting and 1931 date with Hall name also ground off, but carry an engine plate saying 41A with the three digit serial number. Assume De Vaux over ordered the 40A expecting a large sale of the 675's, which didn't happen, so Continental who took over De Vaux in 1932 used up existing engines for 32 and 33.
I see another 675 sedan in the Registry which has the 22AA600 and block date of 3-20-31. I note the existing Ace's have 40AA601 casting on all 5 of them, serial numbers are different of course.
This seems to be a US thing where different States or area's used either the actual VIN, the engine serial or their own vin number
Where Are You From? Ottawa Ont
Do You own a car built by Durant? 1932 Dominion built 614 Sedan
So the block casting number is 40AA600 dated 3-11-31, the head is 40AA200 dated 3-20-31 and it does have HALL cast into the block as well. As far as the serial number, I am not sure where that would be located or if it exists. Thanks again for all your help.
Where Are You From? Elk Grove, Ca
Do You own a car built by Durant? DeVaux
Used to be a pic on Forum at one time but with Photobucket playing games now and wanting a ton of money to use it, they wiped out everyone's posting of pic's. However the little gray cells reminded me of the late Myron Cummings De Vaux online in Hemmings June 2016 with a couple of engine pic's
https://www.hemmings.com/magazine/hcc/2016/06/The-De-Vaux---1932-De-Vaux-Model-80/3749742.html
This is what you should see on your engine. This 40A has serial 6244.
Where Are You From? Ottawa Ont
Do You own a car built by Durant? 1932 Dominion built 614 Sedan
Where would that plate be located?
Where Are You From? Elk Grove, Ca
Do You own a car built by Durant? DeVaux
As I said in my email I am not sure, but a friend of mine pointed out that pic of the plate shows the oil pan bolt ends, so bottom of the block under the valve cover.
Where Are You From? Ottawa Ont
Do You own a car built by Durant? 1932 Dominion built 614 Sedan
After looking at the picture I found the spot where that tag should be, which is the right front side of the block next to the casting number. However mine was missing. After searching through several boxes of parts I located the plate. Thanks again for all your help and pointing me in the right direction.
Where Are You From? Elk Grove, CA
Do You own a car built by Durant? 1931 DeVaux
Hi Greg (and Norm to) I think I have been tracking your car since the 70,s. The firewall tag is the Hayes body number. Does the toe board number end in '35'? I think you have found out that the engine number has been used for the ID. The engine number I have on my Registry for this car ends in "57"
This is the same problem I had with the Custom Sedan I got out of Sonoma. California was using (at that time) the engine number. Washington State wanted the Toe Board number and wanted me to haul it back to California. I just left it with a California title and my Washington address.
Anyway,if this is the same car it was purchased off a used car lot in Sacramento in about 1969. I have a picture of the car taken when Bob drove it home. His two children are in the Rumble seat. By the way, this is a Custom Coupe. I saw the car in 2000 in his garage...all torn down.
Gary My E-mail is garyyelle@msn.com
Where Are You From? Washington State
Do You own a car built by Durant? Yes
Norm: I just re-read your post of the 11th on Myron's car. Is this the 32 Convert. that you are talking about? If so, I have to tell you that the 32 has a 31 engine. No 32 engine that I know of has the "Hall" logo.
Gary
Where Are You From? Washington State
Do You own a car built by Durant? Yes
Hi Gary you are way too late, Greg sent me the info on the car and yes it's the same car you talk about from the estate of Bob Fossgreen. He has the engine plate he found in a box of parts. However you have the wrong VIN number which is why I couldn't find it, VIN ends in 60 Gary told me. Terry also has the C-1535.
And yes I mentioned that in one of my postings above re Hall name on the 680 and Ace being ground off the 40A. All 40A's for the 3 years are cast in 1931 even if the Ace plate says 41A the casting still shows 40A and 1931 date. Daryl's Ace's and Fronty Ace all have 40AA601 with April 1931 as block casting date.
Where Are You From? Ottawa Ont
Do You own a car built by Durant? 1932 Dominion built 614 Sedan
Hi Gary, Yes this is the Bob Fossgreen car with the VIN ending in 60 with the rest of the numbers that Norm mentioned are correct.
Where Are You From? Elk Grove, Ca
Do You own a car built by Durant? DeVaux
Greg: First of all, I hope you have (or will) join our Durant Motors Automobile Club. This has been the best car club I could be in.
I dug thru 4 old registries that are hand typed and I found a "missing" car that was sold by William Seadler of Sacramento to a school teacher in Elk Grove. The next typed Registry shows Bob Fossgreen. The incorrect Vin # goes way back to the beginning.
About 3 or 4 years ago I got a call from Bob's daughter to tell me that her folks had passed and would I be interested in the car. Eventually she sold it to a retired man down the street. I am thinking the title was never changed. (As I have done many times.)
I hope you got a lot of background information on the DeVaux and the life of Norman DeVaux from Sean as I sent him a lot. If not, contact me by E-mail and I can send information to you.
Gary
Where Are You From? Washington State
Do You own a car built by Durant? Yes
if this is truly a custom coupe,with side mounts trunk rack and landau irons is it the only one to survive,i don't remember seeing another custom except sedans,i talked to the daughter after the father had passed and told her I was interested in the car ,she was supposed to call me back after she got everything situated but I never heard from her I called later and they told me it was sold at a garage sale
Where Are You From? southern calif
Do You own a car built by Durant? 1931 and 1932 devaux
Dave: I just sent you a E-mail on our conversation. I will post more later.
Gary
Where Are You From? Washington State
Do You own a car built by Durant? Yes
I am new to the DeVaux game, but it does have all you mentioned i.e. 2 side mounts, trunk rack, and landau irons.
Where Are You From? Elk Grove, Ca
Do You own a car built by Durant? DeVaux
Well if it has those items it’s definately a custom,does it have 17 inch or 19 inch wheels,if I can help in any way just contact me, Dave
Where Are You From? So calif
Do You own a car built by Durant? Devaux
Greg: You have answered the question I had (to my-self) if you had both side mounts and the rumble you have the top of the line and that is a Custom Coupe. There is one more that I know of and that is in Holister, Ca. That was out of the Harrah collection and I have a picture of it when it was on display. The sedan I restored out of Sonoma is a 154-. It was a Fall series, with the chrome cowl band and the "Free Wheeling"
Dave, If you could give us the Hayes # on your 31 Coupe and your 32 Coupe, that might help. Also, you made reference to the wheel size on 31 cars. They are all 19 inch. My 32 Standard has 19 inch wheels. 17 Inch wheels were on the Custom Coupe and Sedan. Also Dave, my 32 Standard does not have the "Free Wheeling" feature. Could you also look at the engine ID on your 32 as I checked mine today and no Hall logos and the plate is "Continental Motor Corp."
Last but not least, I am thinking that any car with a 150- is actually a Standard. Reading between the lines, the "Specifications" charts would indicate that.
Time to hit the rack..(Navy talk)..Gary
Where Are You From? Washington State
Do You own a car built by Durant? Yes
Yes Gary as Terry indicates and my brochure on the 680, wheels are 17 x 5.50 Custom Model -- 19 x 5.25 Standard Model. Continental had taken over the De Vaux for the 680 which is why the Hall name was ground off the 40A and plate would show no reference to Hall Motors, same as the Ace does, but 675 / 680 / Ace all have casting dates in March / April 1931 range. I note I have no 40A engine serial, nor 1931 casting date on your 680, but I have the Hayes 166 number.
On Dave's two cars I don't have colour's, engine serials, 1931 casting dates, or Hayes body #s.
Yes the Custom Coupe in Hollister Ca has Hayes 153 body number.
Where Are You From? Ottawa Ont
Do You own a car built by Durant? 1932 Dominion built 614 Sedan
It has 19 inch wheels. Thanks for the offer to help, I am sure I will need it.
Where Are You From? Elk Grove, Ca
Do You own a car built by Durant? DeVaux
My 1931 Devaux custom coupe has wire wheels, dual side mounts, landau bars and trunk rack.
Custom Coupe, Blue / Black, Hayes body tag 153-1026
Frank....
Where Are You From? Hookstown Pennsylvania
Do You own a car built by Durant? many
Frank:
I am sorry I missed you. I have to get all my notes together. You have a "low numbered" Michigan car. Maybe you can help me? The early cars (both Michigan and Oakland) did not have a brace (stabilizer) behind the spare mount. The 31 that the Reinke family got from Myron is the same.
Gary
Where Are You From? Washington State
Do You own a car built by Durant? Yes
Ah ha another on my list is Stanley's car now Frank's. Still waiting the engine serial 40A-1- ????. Have the casting 3-10-31, Hayes, colour, and vin.
Myron also had Custom Coupe M-3386 which was scrapped.
I see Custom Coupe of Floyd's with Hayes 153-1110 but no vin #, casting date, or colour.
We might yet make sense of the Hayes body tags and straighten out the mess of the 8 body styles and fix the Registry where folks have assumed they have other than what the Hayes tag tells us. As Gary tells me not much attention was paid in the past about details or correctness of De Vaux info. Greg's vin number has been wrong for several De Vaux lists going way back which I assume Terry must have used for his Registry.
Steve and I have been trying to work on the Hayes tags since 2014 to get 675 / 680/ Beacon / Flyer / Ace / 633 / Fronty's body styles. Ace was easy being 181 for Standard or deluxe 5 passenger 4 door using same body and Frontenac Ace is 191 sedan / deluxe sedan. But with no known Standard Coupe with RS in both Aces we have no idea the body tag number. 633 Durant is an odd ball with S as body number on the Coupe, Sedan lost its. The surviving basket case 685 Frontenac Coupe has neither vin nor Hayes plates, both lost. And with it being the only 685 we will never know the 6 Hayes body tag numbers. C-400 / C-600 Frontenac's which are basically Beacon and Flyer are yet another mystery as they didn't get Hayes body tags but its own number stamped on the firewall without giving a body tag style number. The only De Vo has its info 185 which is same body as the 5 passenger 4 door sedan standard or deluxe Beacon, 5 passenger 4 door sedan of Flyer, and the 1934 Red Seal (Beacon) model 41 5 passenger 4 door sedan.
Where Are You From? Ottawa Ont
Do You own a car built by Durant? 1932 Dominion built 614 Sedan
Norm:
I have to take exception to the 3rd. paragraph of the last post. This all started many years ago when Barry Palmer and George Ferris started a project of finding DeVaux's that were still out there. There interest was only Names, addresses and types of cars. They did a GREAT job without the internet, only making long distance calls with their own money. When I asked to take it over from Myron, just names and model of cars were my interest. When I would find something new, I would call Terry to tell him. I understood that he got his basic information from Jeff Gillis. I am not sure and I don't care. When I got the idea of my web site (thanks to Rick) my intention was to have new DeVaux owners contact me.
When Terry passed you two decided to take it over and bring everything in line. I sent you a copy of my "Devaux Registry" Your goal was a lot different than mine.
When I get notice of a change I will try to tell you and I hope you do the same for me. There is no "MESS" here just a "work in progress.
Gary
Where Are You From? Washington State
Do You own a car built by Durant? Yes
Yes, of course we send you info as we find it. And as you pointed about expenses out of pocket, Steve calls world wide to get info on vehicles 1921 - 1934 in Billy's empire and off shoots. Would hate to see his phone bills and how much he has spent out of pocket. Misconception as Steve started his OWN Registry before Terry passed and was asked to take over Terry's durantcars which went no where when we couldn't make any sense of Terry's site to do anything. I still have a few mails on that failed venture. Going back in history, the Cumberland Museum came after me about their 1929 Durant 40 vin not being in the vin range on Jeff's vin list and when was it made etc. I then looked at Jeff's vin endeavor in DMAC and Terry's own site, and both were incorrect but differently. Jeff's had no vin ranges for Jan - July 1929 at all plants on the 40 and Terry did but had 101 as start instead of 1001. Terry fixed his after I told him. Cumberland now happy their car was a 1929 model year in the first seven months. Rick couldn't figure how to add the line of info on Jeff's page, so it remained that way until last year.
About the same time Steve contacted Terry, as Terry's last entry into his site was half the info on my 32 in Dec 2006 and nothing after. Terry also told me he intended on doing a Canadian side to his site if he had time. Didn't happen. Most of his site is based on Branham's info which is US only. Steve volunteered to work with Terry to fix / update / add info, with the understanding Terry would have final say to the updates. Terry refused Steve's offer. Now you have the understanding of Steve's OWN Registry beginning to take place and gathering info everywhere. I've never seen them but Steve has boxes of books, vin books, brochures on our cars to build his Registry.
The Mess I refer to is trying to figure out what exactly is the correct eight body tag style numbers for the De Vaux's. As example in my email to you, when one vehicle is called a Custom Coupe with 151 tag and another with 153. Or another saying Sport Sedan has 158 yet another showing 150. That's the sort of thing I am talking about. If we knew what the correct 8 tags are then we could alter info on the wrong ones to reflect the vehicle is a Standard Coupe / Sedan not one of the other three, sort of thing. Yes owners alter vehicles as we know to from what rolled out of the factory but underneath that tag tells the truth.
Where Are You From? Ottawa Ont
Do You own a car built by Durant? 1932 Dominion built 614 Sedan
Where Are You From? Hookstown Pennsylvania
Do You own a car built by Durant? many
Is it possible for someone to post a picture of an open hood on a Devaux where it attaches to the center bar? My car is in pieces, and I am trying to figure out how the hood is held in place at that center bar. Any help would be appreciated. Thank you.
Where Are You From? Elk Grove, Ca
Do You own a car built by Durant? DeVaux
Greg: I just sent you a pack of pictures. I have one shot taken from each side of the engine. That way you will know how things should attach. I never took a picture that could explain what you are needing to do. I will have to call you to try to explain it.
These are the same parts I need to hang the hood on my 32. I hope to get them within a few weeks. Then I will take pictures to send to you.
Frank: I am glad you posted the pictures of you car. As we can see in the 3rd picture there is no brace coming out of the body (just above the "Hayes" badge) Soon after production started the factories got complaints from customers of vibration of the spare wheel assembly. I got this from Howard when I saw pictures of Tim's 31 without a brace. In factory production they appear to be only 35 units apart.
Gary
Where Are You From? Washington State
Do You own a car built by Durant? Yes
Gary .. that the same hood strip and end clamps I mentioned to you about finding B42 Mack ones ? Mack is too long but can be cut to length needed. Also used on the 31 / 32 Durant / Rugby's, Plymouths and other vehicles. Ours are chromed steel but Mack's are stainless steel.
Had to wait trying to get Windoz Live Mail to work in the pc but here's the lad I got mine off of. I note even the bigmacktrucks site refers to the same lad for the same parts.
B Mack hood strip / ends http://www.kingofsalvage.com/mack-b-model-hood-fender.htm
Where Are You From? Ottawa Ont
Do You own a car built by Durant? 1932 Dominion built 614 Sedan
Been doing some snooping around and Watts Truck Center used to also carry the hood strip and ends for B model Mack Trucks. I don't see those now.
Mac's Ford Parts carry the strip for 32 - 35 Ford's but its too short for our hoods and the two different ends are not ours.
What I did find was this site that carry's both the strip and end caps we use. Strip like the Mack's, is 4 feet long but as they say can me cut to fit the vehicles that used the strip.
The caps they show, ours is the left ones for the 32 Plymouth.
http://www.srpmstreetrods.com/srpm/mopar-hood-hinge-center-strip-ff8081812db6a293012dbe0e3cd504d5-p.html
Where Are You From? Ottawa Ont
Do You own a car built by Durant? 1932 Dominion built 614 Sedan
Maybe the "S" on the Hayes body tag is for Sakhnoffsky....as in Count? As it appears on the more arrow dynamic designed versions?
Where Are You From? Tucson
Do You own a car built by Durant? a-22, b-22, 633
We will never know what was used on the 685 Fronty tags or what was on 633 Coupe tag unless a few of these vehicles come out of the woodwork to give us a clue. As we know 680 / 685 / 633 used same Hayes bodies / fenders. Its possible different alpha was used to correspond to the numeric 680 body tags. Again why were body tags used on the 33 / 34 Continentals but not on the C-400 / C-600 Frontys ? then to throw a monkey wrench in that and have the Ace with 181 and Fronty Ace with 191 Hayes tags. In the case of the Ace's the vin plate model is 81 US and 91 Can. That blows the idea everywhere in vin and models info both were 81's. If we hadn't gone after Daryl for his Ace's info that myth would have continued. Then eBay had a rusty Ace in the US a few years back and its tag had 191. So it wasn't an Ace but a Fronty Ace.
Another notion is the S was "Special" order for the 9 / 11 / 15 ?? 633's built.
Apparently Alexis had nothing to do with De Vaux bodies. Reading this the 680 and later were used up Hayes bodies. What bodies ? Reo / Franklin that looks much like the 680 body. Remember REO was built in Dominion 1932 and after.
What I have trouble with is what unused Durant bodies ? You study the Durant / 675 De Vaux sedan and they aren't the same. Rear quarter windows on De Vaux are wider and back of rear door is forward of center of the fender. De Vaux wood doors and posts and 3 hinge on fronts. Windshield swings out. Durant windshield goes up, doors and posts are steel, front door 2 hinge, quarter window narrower, back of rear door is center of fender.
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In 1930 Hayes signed a three-year contract to build bodies for the American Austin/Bantam that were designed by deSakhnoffsky, and later made a deal to supply bodies for the 1931-32 DeVaux. Although DeVaux advertisements stated that deSakhnoffsky had designed the cars coachwork, in reality the bodies he designed weren’t actually used. Instead, leftover Hayes-built Durant bodies were supplied to DeVaux with deSakhnoffsky-designed fenders, hood and grill to update them. By the time the DeVaux appeared, deSakhnoffsky had been hired away by Packard’s Edward Macauley, and was in no position to complain.
In fact the DeVaux was built in a leased portion of Hayes huge Grand Rapids plant, and the bodies were transported across a second floor bridge that ran over the street that separated the two buildings. DeVaux’s successor, Continental, continued to utilize various leftover Hayes-built bodies.
In the early Depression era, many manufacturers shared bodies to help reduce. The Peerless Custom Eight and Marmon Big Eight shared the same Hayes-built body between 1930 and 1932, and the 1932 Marmon 8-125, 1932-34 Reo Flying Cloud 6S and 1933-34 Franklin Olympic shared a different Hayes design. Automobile customers rarely compared the actual bodies, and addressed their attention to a vehicle’s front end, which could be easily disguised using a different grill or front fenders. General Motors started doing it at the same time, and the practice continues today.
Where Are You From? Ottawa Ont
Do You own a car built by Durant? 1932 Dominion built 614 Sedan