Hi All....

I never intended to cause a problem, only did this to help fellow members, sorry for any problems this may have caused.

Here is the email I recieved, and was asked to post. I do agree in principal, but don't think any members would use these plates fradulently. What do you think??


"Frank as a
fellow D.M.A.C. I'm glad you have taken this on to help members, but as a
researcher involved in Durant family of vehicles serial number registry's
you have created a monster. Your new tags redone from originals are and can be
targets for people to change their numbers giving them a lot more historical
significance than they really had and down the road all the real facts will
become distorted and invalid. I know this may sound petty to a lot, but accuracy
is most important when dealing with historical facts, and it is a tuff enough
job without any other variables such as I.D. replacement plates. I don't
know how many you have in stock or if there is an extra cost to add items to new
plates when you order more, but PLEASE PLEASE indicate somewhere on the plates
that these are replacements, either by placing that word on the
plate or by adding your initials to the plate F.W. or any thing you can think
of so future researchers can figure out that these are in fact different plates
than the originals and that the new numbers placed on them might not be the
actual original factory version. If you feel as strongly as I do about keeping
the history and facts about these vehicles correct and 100%authenticic, then
something can be done to make it so. Could you also mail out the ready made
plates in stock with a note on this subject and also post something along these
lines to the Club web board that will warn members what the long term affects
about changing serial numbers can cause and that it shouldn't even be
considered, and if you change your plate detail all involved down the road can
approach the new replacement plate info with grain of
 salt.     

How will you account for all the plates Jeff Gillis sold in the past?

Dave

You can get reproduction VIN plates for virtually any make and year of car. I have one for my 50 Mercury. I subscribe to all the old car magazines and haven't heard of anyone else worried about these plates. I suspect that this is because for most cars it doesn't matter. For those that it does, there are probably other ways to tell authenticity.

Do You own a car built by Durant? 1925 Star

Vince - I agree with you. I don't see it as such a big deal. A replica vin plate not being available, is not going to stop someone from being dishonest.

Steve,
I see that you also read the recent article in the latest Muscle Car magazine that is on the stands now.

Yes it was a Good Read, and went into quite a lot of depth about copying VIN numbers. Also covered showing too much Documentation and Original VIN/Data tags (even at Car Shows) or in correspondence that dishonest people can conterfit or use in a Title, Loan, or Insurance fraud scheme.

I know the "Clone", "Replica" or "Tribute" issue is rampent in the Muscle Car world! Especially on the high end "Hemi CUDA" or "Judge GTO" type muscle cars.

BUT I would bet there is not a lot of conterfiting of Durant or Star cars going on for HIGH Profit? Of course I may be wrong.
Lance C.

Do You own a car built by Durant? 26 Locomobile JR-8 Sedan and 26 JR-8 Roadster project, 30 Durant 410 Special Deluxe 4Dr.

An interesting concern that Steve has brought up but I must say I am not in total agreement. On muscle cars where people want all numbers to match in can be a problem. On a car like a Durant, Model t, Dodge, ect. I don't see it as the same problem. I do not have a reproduction plate on my Star but I do have one on my Dodge, on three Model Ts, and I just finished making a new plate for my Moon. I do understand where Steve is coming from just not in agreement. I just sold a 22 Chev which I built from parts. I picked up a ID plate at a swap meet and added it to the completed car just like the fenders and wheels.

Do You own a car built by Durant? star

Steve,
One final thought I have never seen a "100 Percent" authentic car, and dought if anyone else has. Bill Harrah tried to raise standards in restoration but again even Harrah's had trouble achieving the upper levels of this.

What is authentic is based on what is known or found out about an old car. There are standards for judging but even they are not hard and fast. Alot depends on when or even what day in a car's life you restore it to, and who does the restoration and that is even open to disscussion.

I get very upset when I watch a TV show or an Auction company like "Barrett Jackson" and the owners like "Craig" dictate to me what a "Condition 3" or "Driver" is when he says it should be near perfect or or flawless, when he is actually hypeing up the price for his Auctions or similar Circus.

I know I have offended some out there but I see this MONEY (Greed!)end of the Hobby really destroying what old cars and restoring them is all about. I just like Old Cars! The history and fellowship with other like-minded people are why I'm in the hobby, and making money is a distant last place objective. If you or anyone else takes offense with me or my comments I'm sorry.
I've said my piece, and am off my soapbox now! Some of these issues really get my blood boiling.

Thanks for your time reading this and my prior comments.
Lance C.

Do You own a car built by Durant? 26 Locomobile JR-8 Sedan and 26 JR-8 Roadster project, 30 Durant 410 Special Deluxe 4Dr.

Steve there is a very distinct difference in the data plate that Frank sells, as well as most of the data plates for sale by restoration companys. The originals were "etched" or "stamped" in a press or had otherwise raised lettering, the ones that Jeff was selling through the club as well as the ones that Frank is currently selling they are "silk screened " or "photo screened" I van't remember the name of the process. The main thing is they are easy to spot when you know what to look for.
That being said they really clean up a car when yours is very ratty looking and are worth the money(hey Frank how was that).
As for fraud, with a durant product their is very little that the serial # will actually tell you. It rarely tells you what year a vehicle is (1921-1926 being the exception) it will not tell you the body style, which would be the only money reason to do such a thing.
Steve you do make a very good point and maybe some of us are just too trusting in this hobby

Frank I too disagree stongly with Steve on the importance of such an issue. They make replacement ID plates for my TR6 that I have, and I know you can get replacement plates for Mustangs and all other cars. I for one am going to place one of your plates on my restored model 65 to replace the original as yours looks much better than the one on my car and it might mean points when I have her judged. Most of our cars don't even use the serial number but the engine number for their registrations as they did a long time ago. All my old titles that I have for the 65 use the engine number. Besides that does anybody or can anybody really get a handle on the Durant VIN numbering system. What original reference book from the factory do we really have to compare the numbers with to validate if that number is the original VIN number or not? None that I can find, and I know for a fact that the Sloan museum or Kettering does not have such a record. To many years have gone by to really say that any number on the cars are original unless you bought it or obtained if from the original owner or have the history back to the first purchaser. I for one vote against any marking on the plate that would make it different from the original as I want my plate to duplicate the original in every way not with FW on the plate or Duplicate printed. I say leave it alone and I'm sure the majority of the DMAC members will agree.

Do You own a car built by Durant? 1928 Durant Model 65 4 door

if you have no i.d. plate ...get one and pick a number...its no different than buying a title to use to get the car on the road and allow it to be bought / sold.....there is no fraud intention but there is sure plenty of fraud in what many of us have done all these years...i have model 70 1929 ....coupe number 1001....from california....can anyone tell me whether they did or didn't make model 70's there in california???...according to the durant catalogue, they never made them at all...but we know of 4 that exsist.....so what does it all mean????? regards, gary k

Hello all...Quite a discussion! Here's another 2 cents and a quick story. About 10 years ago, A friend came to me with a '70 6cyl. Dodge Dart wanting to do a complete groud-up restoration and conversion into a V8 340 Dodge Dart Swinger (clone car). For sometime he had been gathering the correct parts with the correct casting numbers and ect... The project was completed down to the last fine detail. The car won several shows including taking a 2nd place at The Chrysler Supernationals held in Indianapolis Indiana judged by AACA judges. While my friend was never interested in changing the tags or trying to claim the car was an original much more valuable "340 Swinger".... hardships happened and the car was sold and headed to an individuale in the midwest. Who knows if it still sports the same original tags with 6 cyl. information or if changes to the tags were made? On these newer cars, the tags carry a large amount of info about all the manufacturing,equipment and accessories for each vehicle.
I believe that there "IS" a problem with the changing of the tags on these "HIGHER DOLLAR CARS" as people are always trying to make a buck. For these cars, STEVE'S POINT IS VERY VALID!
THAT SAID...I also believe that this is not the case with the reproduction tags that are used during the restoration of the older cars. These tags (ranging from I.D tags to horn,starters ect...) do not contain any significant information I know of that could be used to try and deceive anyone or increase the value of these vehicles. They are simply being used for cosmetic purposes.
I PERSONALLY commend Jeff, Frank, Franz and all others that invested the time and effort to supply others with cosmetic and functional reproduction parts to help keep our cars on the road.
JUST MY OPINION... Jim

The old saying "Much Ado About Nothing" seems to fit the original complaint.
I'm in agreement with all above and am of the opinion that if a person intends to do something dishonest or otherwise shady, a marked reproduction data plate would be of little impedance.
In building our pair of '27 Star Coupes, parts are being used from many different vehicles and varying years. As no data plates were included with the projects, ratty original data plates were purchased at swap meets with the intention of reusing the numbers. We have new plates, from Frank, and will do just that.

However, this subject has generated one of the best Forum threads in quite a while!!!

Merry Christmas from Texas where it's 72 degrees!
Don Shilling

Do You own a car built by Durant? 1923 Star C touring, 1927 Star M coupe

In Kentucky when you tittle a car they match the serial number to the tittle. If you have a car that was assembled from parts the first thing they check is the serial number. The law is written telling them to chack Vin number and we all know that they did not start using Vin numbers until Durant was out of production so they have to use the motor number or frame number or tag number. You must have something that matchs.

Merry Christmas
Jan

Do You own a car built by Durant? star