i,m working on 30 durant i bought which supposedly had the motor rebuilt. turns out its more like the motor got a new coat of paint. i have reset the points .020, new 3076 plugs gapped .027. timing is set 4 teeth before tdc. when running the the timing advances. i replaced all four exhaust valve springs and reground and lapped all the valves. using the original tillotson carb and my old vacuum fuel pump as a nurse can the truck pulls through first gear and second gear fine, when i make the third gear shift the motor bogs down and dies ( no back fire or miss )it sound like it starving for fuel.i replaced the tillot with a new zenith carb ( it has a smaller throttle bore) and it does the same thing. i installed an electric fuel pump and ran 5/16 line and she still does the same thing. when shifting back to second the motor lugs for a bit but recovers and runs well. what am i missing ?????? thanks for any input, carl

Do You own a car built by Durant? 1930 durant m2

I wonder if they could have gotten the cam timing out a tooth or two when they rebuilt the engine, and still not backfire?...How about enough valve clearance? I would put a good vacuum gauge on it and see if she has enough vacuum and the vacuum is holding steady, that would eliminate a few things...Possiably your IGN is breaking down under a heavy load...I would agree it does sound like fuel but sounds like you have been there.

Bill

Do You own a car built by Durant? A-22 Touring

Carl, you've got a real head scratcher there! The only correlation between transmission operation and engine performance is the amount of power to pull the vehicle.
I'm confused about your description of timing as "four teeth before tdc". There are timing marks punched on the crankshaft gear and the cam gear. These should be pointing towards each other when installing the timing chain. Improper cam timing will greatly affect engine power.

Do You own a car built by Durant? 1923 Star touring, 1927 Star M Coupe

on tdc of the compression stroke ( #1 cyl there is a tdc mark behind the ring gear on the flywheel, i read the points on number one cyl should open at four flywheel teeth before tdc. they do and ive checked it with a timing light, i can also speed up the motor and the mark advances( ive got the full advance dist, no lever ). the springs and weights in the dist are free and clean. three exh springs were compressed about a half inch which is why i question how someone could rebuild a motor and miss this.i set the valves cold, int 10s and exh 11s. i also found the dist gear one tooth off( the rotor was past the #1 plug wire ). i put a new 6v coil on it with the built in resistor, the fire from a plug wire to the plug jumps and inch and is blue. i havent pulled the timing cover but i afraid thats where the problem is. the motor idles and the idle bleed adjusts. it revs up to full throttle out of gear, at idle the vacuum needle is all over, slightly above idle she pulls about 10-12 inches steady, and going wide open she drops to zero smoothly. when i hit third there is no sudden drag or pull on the car it just gives off the hollow out of fuel sound. everything ive found from the brakes to the clutch has been gone through and put back together with a glitch in it. cams in rear shoes backwards, wrong wheel brg seals in frt wheels, bent brake rods and one bent clutch lining. all is fixed and its been a blast but this little ole 4 banger is eating my lunch. thank frank for his books. don: you met with my wife and me at pate were the ones building the wrecker. you helped me out with the floor board constuction.

I had a problem with my W-5 randomly being starved for fuel. After doing most of the things you've done, I discovered that the vent on the gas cap was rusted shut. As the engine ran, it created a vaccum in the gas tank. Under a heavy load, it couldn't get enough gas. At idle, enough air leaked around the cap to relieve the vaccum.

Try leaving the cap off and see what happens.

Do You own a car built by Durant? 1925 Star

Carl,

Your vacuum being all over the place at Idle most likely indicate your cam out of time... I am thinking that you may be able to verify that by removing your valve cover and exactly when #4 exaust valve just closes and #4 intake valve just cracks open (when they cross) your timing mark should be passing the TDC mark on the compression stroke, However if your valve timing is only out by one tooth I am not sure if you could pinpoint it that way or not... Just a thought.

Do You own a car built by Durant? A-22 Touring

if i tear into the timing cover the book i have says the link counts between the sprokets are marked on the timing cover from the factory. what exactly am i looking for? its not like a sb chevy....

If you had the engine running at the same speed in 2nd gear, what does it do? I mean same rpm, with car going up hill to provide the same torque load?

I'm suspicious of your distributer. Maybe the advance is sticking? Maybe the springs aren't optimum for this engine.

When you shift into high, you are slowing down the engine, but increasing the power needed anyway. On a farm tractor, there is a "load valve", or adjustable main jet to give you the richness needed for heavy lugging.

Remember, this car has a pretty low horsepower to weight ratio. It would not be "snappy" in high gear. It probably needs a 5 speed.

Do You own a car built by Durant? yes

first and second gear seem to pull much like a model a i had the rpm picks up smoothly and holding the car in second gear it runs smooth, its after the change to third (guessing15-20 mph)it almost immediatly looses rpm and decelerates and will die, it sounds like a gm quadrajet when the air valves open but the fuel rods dont lift out of the seats. when i down shift it takes a few seconds to pick up speed again but then will pull in second. the advance seems to work when i put a timing light on it and rev er up the mark advances. the springs are a little sloppy but the weights move freely. its the same thing on 2 diff carbs, and the same using either gravity feed or a fuel pump for delivery. ive got the main jet adjusted out about three turns if i go out any further i lose power in second. maximum second gear engine vacuum is 12 inches.im planning on pulling the timing cover. does anyone have the correct timing mark specs for the w5 ? thanks to all who have weighed in...carl

Carl,

In out Tech Page there is a Repair Manual for the 1929 Model 40 that Curt Smith provided, the Model 40 has a W-5 engine, possiably the information that you are looking for is in this manual...I am not having any luck in downloading this material so I can't be certain that it is there...I have reciently acquired a Model 40 and would like this information as well.

Bill

Do You own a car built by Durant? A-22 Touring

Hi Carl,
If the flow of fuel is steady to the carburetor(s),you might want to try testing its compression.This will lead you to any # of compression related possibilities (or not).A motor needs way more horsepower, I.E. fuel and compression in high gear, than it does in second gear. Hope this helps. There is always something the last place you look. Murphy's Law. Please , when you find this problem don't forget to share it with us.
Don

Where Are You From? RacingRust

Do You own a car built by Durant? Star single seat dirt track racer (in progress)

timing motor with the chain off,rotate the motor until #1 piston is at its highest point,that is,top dead center. Rotate the camshaft until the #1 exhaust valve closes.The valve must be closed,but the valve lifter should still be in contact with the valve stem.
The motor is then timed and the chain can be installed.Use care in placing the chain on the sprockets so as not to change the position of these sprockets.In line with the chain travel and between the crankshaft sprocket and the camshaft sprocket,the number of chain links is plainly marked on the chain case casting.On the generator sprocket-at the postion from the keyway and at the base of the teeth-the figure "0" is stamped. counting from this point to a similar mark crankshaft sprocket the number of links should correspond to the number of links as marked on the timing chain case.Also as between the crankshaft sprocket and the camshaft sprocket there should be a definite number of links as marked on the timing gear case,these counts being taken from similar marks on the two gears.The crankshaft gear has two naughts stamped on it.the count is always taken from the naught nearest to the gear for which the count is being taken.It is very important that these counts be correct;otherwise there is danger of mis-timing and crowding the chain,causing breakage and serious damage.

Do You own a car built by Durant? 1926 star coupster

it revs up to full throttle out of gear, at idle the vacuum needle is all over, slightly above idle she pulls about 10-12 inches steady, and going wide open she drops to zero smoothly. / quote

Vacuum dropping to zero may indicate a restricted exhaust.

RonJ

If I understand the problem everything works just fine in first and second. So seeing as you have tried everything else, and because so many things were put together incorrectly you may what to check out the transmission to see if there is excessive drag when in third, like a bad bearing, bent shaft or something. Blocking up the rear wheels and running the car through the gears would be one way that might shed some light on the problem. If she still bogs down in third when not pulling much of a load it might not be an engine problem.

PROBLEM IS SOLVED. thanks to everyone who tried to solve this problem. what made this trouble so hard to diagnose was the fact that the car actually started and drove. if it would not have run i think it would have been easier to find. there is no way any vehicle i have ever worked on would have run moreless started with the problem this motor had. everyone who suggested compression, timing, vacuum and power loss was on the right track. with the crank at tdc ( not the compression stroke ) #1 the exhaust valve should just close. on my motor with the plug out and watching the exhaust valve, when it closed the piston was atdc an inch and a half down in the cyl. i pulled the timing chain cover and the chain was at least 3 links off. i reset the chain and it runs great, lots more pep than i expected. the vacuum went from 10 to 15 inches at idle with a slight wobble in the pointer. advancing the distributor really adds some power now. the shop manual procedure is rather short in detail. the nuts holding the cam and crank gears are LEFT hand thread. when it mentions counting links it actually means counting each pin, not the actual link itself.i can provide details on how to do it for anyone interested 979-532-3742

You could provide an explanation here in a message for all of us to benefit from!

check out the answer from mike rice, it is straight out of the durant shop manual. the trouble is there is no picture to ilustrate what one is looking for. there is a picture of the the gear assembly but it leaves out all the marks.
i pulled the radiator, and made a cross tee that caught the ears of the front pully that i hooked to an axle slide hammer and off came the pulley and the timing chain cover. this cover is NOT where the markings are as mentioned in mikes reply.
if you start from scratch with the chain off turn the crank so the key is at 12oclock. look through the #1 cyl spark plug hole and you can see the top of the piston. next turn the cam shaft to the point where the #1 cyl exhaust valve just closes ( turn the cam clockwise, but stop as soon as the valve closes, dont keep turning until the lifter drops, you can watch this through the plug hole.)
this is where it gets tricky not that its hard but the shop book is too vauge. with the crank and cam in these positions there will be a 0 mark on the cam gear at about the 4 oclock pos. the crank has two 0 marks, one at 4 oclock and one at 7 oclock. the cam gear gets linked up with the 4 oclock pos on the crank, and the generator gets linked up the 7 oclock mark on the crank.
look into the timing cover housing deep in the right side between the out side of the timing chain and the timing case. in big letters is cast ( in my case) 9 LINKS. on the left side of the case in back but on the inside of the timing chain there are the casting 16 LINKS. these refer to the number of links between the mark on the crank and the mark on either the cam or generator.
the word link does not mean the complete link with the two pins in it, it actually means each individual pin. when i had my gears in place and put the chain around the crank and to the cam the link count was exactly 9 links (pins). the markings on the gears are in the valleys not on the teeth. do not count the pin that falls in the valley of the 0 mark count the next pin, and when you get to the ninth pin it should be in the valley before the mark on the cam.
i put shop towels between the chain and the timing case to hold the chain in position. then i went to the left side counted up 16 pins from the crank 7 oclock 0 mark and put the chain around the generator ( dist) gear, it too has a 0 mark on it. i did not pull either the crank or cam gear, just the gen gear. i loosened up the generator and was able to slip the gear onto the shaft. i did take off the left hand threaded cam nut and cleaned the oil pressure ball and spring.
Be careful if you take the gears off, the keys can fall into the oil pan, i almost lost the gen gear key. i dinged the sides of it with a center punch so it stayed snug in the gen shaft.
if your still with me the motor is now timed correctly. pull back on the generator to tighten the chain, if you are doing a complete rebuild the position you are now is 180 degrees from tdc compression stroke so if you going to stab the distributor either turn the motor one crank revelution or aim the rotor 180 degrees from #1.
you can actually start the motor now with the cover off and she should run. dont put everything back together only to find you miscounted. since the links numbers are actually cast in the block i cant believe there are different link counts for the w5 motor but if someone comes up with different counts id be curious.
anyway i just got back from a speedy trip up the block in third gear, this puppy would outrun any model A. now im really gonna have to put the windshield in. once agin thanks to everybody who tried to help and i hope my problems will help the next guy. "i wasnt a durant mechanic, but now i are one!!!"

A suggestion for Rick Botti - perhaps you could boil the information down in this post and put it in the "Tech page" section.

Hi Carl,

Who would have thought that timing that wacked out would actually run the motor?

I sincerely want to thank you for the extra effort and beautiful explanation of how to time a W5 from scratch.
I am in the process of rebuilding a fresh motor from two old motors. I have been dreading the timing operation because of the limited description in the factory manual. Your thorough description will undoubtably make it painless and even fun.

You sure sound like a Durant mechanic, with an advanced degree in Journalism and Engineering!

This was GREAT.........Thanks!
Don

Where Are You From? RacingRust

Do You own a car built by Durant? Star single seat dirt track racer (in progress)

hey don, my dad was a newspaper editor for 40 yrs, and my brothers a freelance writer. im the one with the wrench in his hand. im redoing the timing picture in the durant shop manual and will be forwarding to frank witkowski. he will add it as a suppliment to the shop manual he sells. you hit the nail on the head you wont see this problem on a car that hasnt been tampered with, the chain can't jump that far off. but if your building one its possible to be off and still run. when i first got the car it hadnt run in years but was rumered that the motor was rebuilt. i put a coil on it and primed the carb and it fired up, i thought i was home free.

On the strength of Carl's report, I opened up my W8 to check the valve timing. I've never been 100% happy with how it ran. Plate says "9 LINKS", mine had eight pins between the two timing marks. I've reset it to nine, should have it running to-morrow. I'm anxious to see how it runs now.

I took pictures which I'll get posted on my website soon.

RonJ