The appraisal provision is being invoked by some insurance companies to stop the glass shops from suing them over short pays. The process can actually work for the glass shop if they use an appraisal company that is familiar with the process. One such company is Auto Glass Appraisal Services. They charge very little for the appraisal to make it worth it for the shop. Their website is www.autoglassappraisal.com. I don't believe there is a way to stop the insurance company from invoking appraisal before they get the bill. They are anticipating a disagreement on price and trying to prevent a suit from being filed against them.

Appraisal provision might be irrelevant. who is contracting for repairs? that is utmost important. What does policy language say? Does it have a provision for appraisal before repair can be completed? Highly doubtful.

I don't know many shops who would even consider doing work that involves Allsnake Or e-no-insurance. Both are 1 in the same and worthless garbage. I NEVER WORK WITH THEM, ONLY WITH MY CUSTOMER.

To use an appraisal service??? REALLY that is just a joke. what a waste of time and money. they are just like Nationwide, not on your side.

Mike doesn't believe there is a way to stop an ins co. from invoking an appraisal, that is NUTS, or maybe INSANE. They can only get away with it if you allow it. Policy does not support it, and "who is the customer", confirms it.

Remember you are working for your customer, not an insurance company or TURD PARTY ADMENISTRATOR, BLEEDING YOU TO DEATH.

Also An appraisal has absolutely nothing to do with collecting short pays. They are completely 2 different animals, and one has nothing to do with the other. FACT JACK! A quote or appraisal and and actual invoice are not directly connected. except by maybe a percentage of fact. Try it in court or an arbitrator, you will see.......

seems no different than LYNX calling to get "competitive quote" . Got call from LYNX yesterday asking for quote on a 1997 Honda Accord doorglass, aftermarket not OEM. I laughed, and told them To have their customer call us, we will not provode a price to an insurance company to use as leverage for another shop. Who still works with LYNX? they are rude, and a joke of a service company.

The appraisal provision exists within almost every auto policy in the country. The insurance company pays the bill, not the insured. Even though the insured is your customer, the policy language is the driving force in this scenario. The policy language is "The Law", and if it is invoked you or your customer must participate if you wish to collect more than they are willing to pay or short pay. If you choose to bill your customer and force them to get reimbursed from their insurance company, that is your choice. An appraiser is the shops way to negotiate with the insurance company's appraiser to establish the amount of the loss that may exceed the amount that the insurance company deems "fair and reasonable". A qualified, low cost appraisal service has proven extremely effective for many shops in various states.

In appraisal I have been very close to my full bill price that puts a 2013 Dodge Avenger billing at over $900 before tax. As long as I have that type of success in a few week time frame I couldn't give a rats behind what animal it's related to.

I would have to suspect that Mr. what? is simply uneducated on the subject if he seriously believes insurance policies do not have legal precident to force shops into appraisal. I would challange him to find a policy without an iron clad appraisal clause. If your going to chime in on a forum about appraisal please educate yourself just a little first. Read your own policy you will certainly find it. The only question is who will be on your side trying to get you all the money possible. If you say the firm that got me paid 90% of an invoice already priced over double the insurance rates is not on my side than I will take all the enemies I can get.Not to mention that was after paying the nominal fees. Why don't you get the facts from one of these appraisal co.fighting to get shops paid a fair dollar Instead of politiking on a subject that seems a bit too challanging for some.When something is simple and works sometimes the best thing to do is go with it. If you know a better way for me to make the money I am now with an appraiser I would love to hear it, and please limit it to solutions that take less than 6 mos.The appraiser I use got his hands dirty for many years doing what we all do.You all wan't to belly ache about jack holes like AGIS then someone comes along to put them in their place and you belly ache about that too. Some people don't deserve a solution and others would not recognize one if it whacked them in the wallet.

so an appraisal company will help me get paid more for the work.
networks said the same when they started out, all they wanted
was a nominal fee. Seems like hands not doing the work get paid better than the ones that do. seems like we are surrounded by enemies or parasites at best.

There is no point in arguing about the appraisal provision until shops educate themselves on all the information needed to make a good decision for their shop. Nothing in the world is for everyone. Check out the company I mentioned earlier or find another solution that works for you. An appraiser is in no way similar to a network or a parasite for that matter. If you are not familiar with how the appraisal process works, here is a brief outline.
If you bill the insurance company an amount above what they want to pay, and you do not have an agreement with them or their TPA, they will invariably short pay you. No shocker there. At this point some insurance companies will invoke the appraisal provision which will state that each party shall appoint an appraiser. The appraisers will determine the amount of the loss. If they fail to agree, they will submit the disagreement to an umpire chosen by the appraisers. Frequently the two appraisers are able to come to an agreement on the amount of the loss that is grater than the amount the insurance company paid to the shop. In this case the shop is paid the difference. This may be an over simplification of the process, but not by much. Drop the negativity long enough to see if it can work for you.

I'd like to enter a couple of points of my own into this discussion.

Yes, I agree that the appraisal clause is in most, if not all, policies.

However, the use of appraisal after the work is performed is akin to shutting the barn door after the horses are out. Collision folks will back this premise up, it's used to estimate damages to, one, allow the insurer to set sufficient reserves aside to pay the claim, two, to ascertain the financial viability of repair (is it more costly to repair than the vehicle's worth?).

Appraising after the repairs are done makes no sense, because simply, the only proof left of what the damages to the vehicle were is the shop's invoice documenting the repairs to the vehicle that were performed, and therefore, the simple document that legally defines the amount of the consumer/insured's loss.

On another note, it's been said or suggested in this string that the insurer has the right to do things because they are paying the bill. If this means the bill for the repairs, I disagree. This has been repeatedly posted, but I'll toss it in here again. The consumer contracts for the repairs to the car with the repairer. The consumer contracts for insurance with the insurer. Never the two contracts shall meet, until or unless the insurer contracts for the repairs to the property under the policy provisions.

The insurer isn't paying the bill. They are paying to indemnify the insured against their loss. They do not contract for the repairs to the car, and therefore neither can the TPA be doing so either. (ex: This...fax...is a subcontracting agreement....)

So, there's my two cents worth in this discussion, may only be worth one, or none.

As always, no legal advice given or offered in this, and also, as always, JMHNLO.

Please do continue the discussion! Lot's of good stuff in here!

I have to agree with Mark1 here.
I did some checking on a couple policies and yes most, but not all have appraisal clauses. Further investigation showed this has been used on larger claims involving major damages. Sometimes to determine if the repairs reach the 70% of value of the property, so the insurer can/or can't total the loss.

In my personal 30 + years of experience I have never had to hire an appraiser, or make a customer wait the up to 20 days,(allowed by policy language,)to have both parties appraise the damages, and then have a judge make a determination of the findings. I think we are talking about a windshield repair or replacement,RIGHT? Now if all the glass was shot out or broken with a baseball bat we may have a different scenario.

What does it cost to hire an impartial appraiser? Is it really worth it for a simple repair or replacement? Doubtful. Mike's reference to his appraiser almost hits a nerve of cheap advertising. The web site looks brand new, and not much info. Plus In some areas do you really think we have such a thing right down the street? Or will that service travel across the U.S. to service me? Where I am, the nearest impartial appraiser may be 100-200 miles away!

Next thought... I have been in the glass industry since the 1980's. I have seen ALL the changes. I am currently seeing insurers and networks doing everything imaginable, and unimaginable, to continue to control the industry, to stop independent from collecting real fair and reasonable pricing, and control 1 main factor, PRICE. This is not just happening in our GLASS industry, but every industry who deals with INSURERS. All of this revolves around 1 thing...Every 5 bucks they can pull off of every invoice is millions or billions in their coffers. This is all about CONTROL.

Last thought, a good friend, and fellow businessman, I have been learning from, has got my mind thinking about the old catch 22. Now think about it.
If a customer has a turkey or large bird, or whatever, smash the w/s, do we really want our customer to have to wait for the appraisal process so they can safely use their vehicle? I think Sglass has commented on this also.

SO, let's go back to policy language that Mike and angel are spewing. Is there any language that talks about the insureds responsibility to repair timely to NOT cause further damages or worse case,,,, injuries? Yes there is. So is a customer supposed to drive a vehicle, let's say their ONLY vehicle, with damages and possibly create further damages resulting in greater losses, just so insurers and tpa's can enforce their right of appraisal? And lastly if insurers stay on this path of encumbering, handicapping, undo annoyance and abusing customers, AND the independent shops trying to service their customers, how many of these insureds are likely to CHANGE INSURANCE COMPANIES? WOW Wanna take a guess? And do the insurers know this fact? I bet they weigh out the possibilities daily.

So catch 22.... the more they tighten the grip, the more customers will slip through their fingers. And changes won't happen until they LOOSE more and more. Customers always ask us "what insurance companies are good to work
with"? And we have the answers! Ok Long enough.

And Hey Mike and angel, I am all for everything independent shops can do to combat the wrong, and possible illegal actions going on by networks and insurers, and all ways we can make it right! I am not the enemy..... I will remain part of the solution, not part of the problem.

This is JMHNLO.

I can only say that alot of people are operating under a few major misconceptions about appraisal. Of the hundreds of claims I have put into appraisal:

1. I have never delayed doing the work on a job by even one minute.

2. I have never had to inspect a vehicle or pay anyone to inspect a vehicle.

3. I have never had to travel to my appraiser.

4. my appraiser has never had to travel to me.

5. I have never had one claim that wasn't worth the fee I pd.

I have collected fair payment on numerous unresolved short pays that were months even years old. That alone more than makes up for any fees I currently pay putting my new jobs into appraisal. Like everyone else I have my share of sweet deals with alot of Insurance Carriers and my share of carriers that are hard nosed to the end. My days of letting those invoices collect dust in a lawyers office are over and I'm happy to have it that way. I have the appraisal process and a darn good appraiser to thank for that. And believe me I do, just about every time I go to my mail box.

Ok angel, I agree, there is allot you are talking about that I am not too sure about. And no matter how old I am or how long I have been at this I am always willing to learn new things. I happen to be in MN and we have things working so well here that the insureds and tpa's are doing everything possible to stop us, and they can't legally, so they keep trying new things to stop the momentum.

It sounds too good to be true, but I will remain hopeful. I do have many misconceptions. You first state you never delay doing the work by even 1 minute. But from what I read on appraisals, the parties involved have up to 20 days to get the appraisal process going. There is something here I don't fully know. Also going this route the insurers do not want you doing the work first, but they try to require APPROVAL first. This seems to be a conflict.

Next you say you never inspect a vehicle or EVER have to pay for anyone to inspect. We inspect every vehicle and document everything we find. hmmm So you don't pay for inspecting, but Then you say you pay fees for the appraisal process, and the appraiser doesn't come to the vehicle or you to the appraiser. This sounds a bit conflicting. how does this work? Over the INTERNET?

Lastly you state that you never had a claim that wasn't worth the fee you paid? But you say you don't pay for inspection? hmm This sounds like a collection agency that you pay to get paid. How can they appraise without physically seeing the vehicle?
I must have this all wrong so please explain in better detail how this works.

I am very skeptical to pay someone so I can collect what Is mine already. And please DO NOT GET ME WRONG, I think is is GREAT that any and all independent shops can find ways to collect the short pays. I am all ears and willing to learn more.

At this time we collect our short pays, all filing fees, late fees, extra admin fees, and all it actually costs is my time. And my time is very valuable at least to me so I make it worth my while. I do understand not all states have laws like we have in MN And case history as we do and some states have to do different thing to collect. I am all for the idea, but I guess I just need to learn more about this, as I bet MANY others do also.

We are on the same side! Please enlighten further. Thank you for your time.

As with anything, the enemy is always looking for ways to shortcircuit something that works too well for the opposition. I firmly believe that answering your questions in a forum that anyone can see or review may not be the bast idea. I think you have great questions and assure you every one can be reconciled. This type of thing is very state specific and I personally am not well versed in MN. law. As the shop and not the appraiser I don't have the capacity to answer your questions with the specificity you deserve. The appraiser mentioned earlier in this thread is the guy doing this great work for me and many other shops. He is available any time and would be happy to explain how things work in your neck of the woods. If nothing else you can satisfy any curiosity you may have. However you proceed I wish you continued prosperity.

I completely and totally respect your answer. I AGREE. I will look further into contacting the right person and place to continue my interest in learning more about this way of dealing with the plight we have before us. And yes this forum IS NOT the place to get into specifics on how we can combat the at times, illegal forces we have to deal with. If and when needed, I will try to get the right info out so I can look into this further.

It is WE, the independent shops who are forging forward to stop the abusive control from tpa's and insurers. Very good dialog, even though we didn't start out perfect, we need to come together and stand united in this fight. We may have different circumstances we have to deal with, but independents must stand united or it will surely be too late. THANK YOU for this input, we are truly on the same side, and more independent shops need to understand that simple fact. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!

A couple quick notes...

If you are happy with how you are currently collecting on shortpays, then why change anything? On the other hand, why harass others who may not have the same state laws and case history?

Ultimately, though we all may have grand ideas of actually changing the industry, at the end of the day we need to get PAID to stay in business. I have also used the appraiser mentioned above (Auto Glass Appraisal Services) because an insurer invoked appraisal on my shop. It doesn't matter if they legally "can" or "can't" because they do. And if I don't want to spend time in court, paying my own attorney fees in my state, fighting this whole process and most likely losing more money than I billed, then hiring a skilled appraiser to do the work for me seems like a valid option.

And, it worked well. I did not get the full amount I billed, but I got about 75%. The appraiser mentioned above is very reasonable (too reasonable), and fully understands the glass business and every element of auto glass pricing. He is willing to take the time to explain every aspect of the process, so if you are interested you should just call him instead of complaining about how insurers aren't "allowed" to do various things. They do them. They have lots of money. Not every shop has the resources to fight insurance companies in court over a couple hundred dollar bill.

As for being a parasite, the solution is simple: If you ever start thinking your appraiser is charging to much then STOP USING THEM. That's the free market...no need for name calling, or assuming others intentions.

I have had no problem with appraisers they call and we discuss the job and price and what it may need and most of the time lets go with the worst case price if all these parts are needed and that is the price...just what I have dealt with most are fair to both parties

considering the insurer isn't buying anything, it looks like you have added an additional layer to the cost of doing business. The thought process is similar, this is easier than to fight for what is mine. Sure seems similar to the thought process that enabled the networks. Good for you if its working, how long before it is considered the new normal.

Speaking of appraisals, the IGA is hosting a webinar on June 7, 2014 on this exact subject. You can sign up for it at http://www.iga.org/tsmevent.asp

I encourage all shops to spend the hour learning about this very important topic.

Regards,
Gary Hart
Executive Director

Independent Glass Association

This is an invalid link.

The link was missing an 'i'. It has been fixed.

I prefer to look at it as hiring a pitbull to watch your money while you worry about what you do best. If you choose the right appraiser the small fee spent is well worth the extra time and freedom it provides to build your business. A "RIGHT APPRAISER" will be part of a webinar on 6/4/14. I believe Gary has provided that link.

Good God this thread started in 2013.
Try to stay on current threads and pay attention

"Dude" try to engage brain before commenting. Keep your eye on the ball and not the dates. It is as irrelevant as you are.

Hey Dude, Instead of engaging in your favorite past time as a forum stalker why don't you go do something productive like making sure your Safelite contract is current. Anyone dumb enough to make a comment like that on a board that has obviously had a lot of very recent activity has got to be dumb enough to be a safelite compliant shop. GOT THAT SKIPPY. Now go dig that contract up.

Dude stands corrected. Ouch : )

Thanks Smiley, good lookin out. It's good to see that there are other people that don't appreciate the mental midgets that don't possess the intelligence to construct a supraliminal annotation so they dribble on their keyboard and themselves while taking sniper shots at those that do.

I look forward to hearing more about appraisal, sounds like it may have serious possibilities!! IGA is hosting a webinar on June 7, 2014 http://www.iga.org/tsmevent.asp is the correct address I believe.