Well a certain solutions is taking a bolder step to steal work. They now don't even try to contact the shop of choice. what they do is put the customer on hold for a few minutes, then return to the line telling the customer they can't get a hold of the shop of their choice. They then after inconveniencing the customer by leaving them sit on hold, they come back on line and try oh so ever hard to let them send a truck right out.

How do I know this? Because I received an e mail for a work order for a VERY Good customer, called the customer right away, and said wow they didn't even call here at the shop they just sent it over, She said WHAT? then she tells me her side of the story. She sat on hold, and they repeatedly tried over and over to get her to accept their shop, not the shop of her choice. The customer is really ticked off and will be contacting her agent, and the Ins co involved. You can steal some of the customers but you won't steal them all with your lies *** solutions! This was the WRONG customer to do this to. She is MAD!

Makes me wonder how many times a day they do this and are getting away with THEFT! Start watching out for this people, your customers are being effected, Lied to, and stolen every day!

Shopowner,

It doesn't stop there. Now when they call, if you tell them you are not under any obligation to accept the price, they proceed to end the call. More and more they tell you that their scripts do not tell them how to deal with your objection. You do not mention your state. Get the customer to file a claim with the Dept of Insurance and perhaps the AG's office in your state. I was advised that if consumers filed complaints with the AG's office in numbers, actions would be taken. It is absolutely amazing that legislation is being introduced across the United States dealing with consumer right to choose, yet were told that there is no problem. Makes one wonder doesn't it? Educate, document and get your customers involved. Get them to call the insurance company directly, it gets results.

I remain,

Mike in NY

Well get use to it because I have...happens every day!

The only way to prevent this from happening is to have the customer contact you first, set up your appointment and call it in when your there doing the job. Network won't steer at that point because you are in control of the claim.

Good luck in the future.

S.E. Mich,

That is well and good. However, if a shop loses one potential customer to this interference, it is wrong and needs to be stopped. A shop should not have to jump through hoops to have a customer use their services. A shop should not have to be concerned about whether or not their customers know enough to call them first. We all have to stop the "That's okay we'll get them the next time" attitude. These are our customers and our businesses. There may not be a next time. Independents are losing their livelihoods in this industry everyday because of this. Through no fault of their own. We are not using advertising dollars for a roll of the dice. There should be no luck involved...

I remain,

Mike in NY

I'm still trying to figure out how a shop can have a tpa to begin with. When does it become a monopoly? A surgeon can't operate on their own child due to ethics this isn't quite as extreme but it just doesn't make any sense. Why can walmart not set pricing for target and kmart if safelite can do what they do?

glassman125, Anyone who signs the "network agreement" is accepting the pricing that the network sets. You don't have to sign the agreement.

And if you dont sign the agreement, then what? Hope and Pray the customer will still use you and pay direct then wait to get reimbursed because that aint gonna happen not arround here they will just go to some other guy that will still bill the Network.

Hey sir slam, I hear you, I'm getting ready, LOL
Justoneofmany,That kind of thinking will keep you stuck in the dark until you are GONE and DEAD. We just did a Farmers job today that we accepted no discounting, because we don't accept discounting, and after the job was finished & the customer was coming to p/up his vehicle he asked if he needed his check book to complete the transaction, and then bill his ins co, we did inform him all was taken care of in courtesy to service him, and all was good, but we are informing customers every day that in fact they need to pay us, and then take it to their respective Ins Co. for reimbursement. This is the way of the future only IF enough true PROFESSIONALS can pull their heads out of their butttts and figure out ,,,, "who is the customer". So, one of, way too many, you people who think they are business men and ladies need to look inside and help stop this madness before it's way too late for you, and all other independents! you fools who keep bowing down to those who wish to consume you make me sick as you are the one's killing a once great industry! But true independents be aware and document how you are being ripped off and stolen from every hour of every day, because I do believe a day is coming, that this will come full circle, and those who are stealing from us will pay, but it will take the strong to make it happen, then watch because allot of the "want to be's" will try to tag along. JMHO

Shop owner... YOU heard me but no one else will because they yanked my post. Geezzz. Last I checked I wasn't living in Cuba. I worked for the Postal Service when I was fresh out of the MARINES.... I was just making a valid point and I said I was not condoning such action.
Ever hear Sam Kinison say.. " I understand what makes Mr. Hand turn into Mr. Fist. "

So when you say you don't accept any discounting, are you using full NAGS list?

maybe tell the network you will do discounting but you only recognise pgw list prices and nags means nothing. lol ya right.

Bobaroo, that's a good one. I might be able to discount using pgw lists. And to answer a few other questions. There are many areas where shops have dropped off networks and pricing still remains PLUS nags, not Minus nags. And you don't sign ANY agreements to take a work order, you either accept it or you don't. I take some jobs through networks, but only on my terms not theirs. Or I direct bill with the customer, it gets easier as you do it. We do not discount from the rebalanced nags, and no can force you to do non profit work, that's a choice.

This thread was about how a certain Solutions group is now putting customers on hold, and they don't even try to contact or call, the shop of choice, they lie and deceive the consumer, by telling them they could not reach the shop of choice, but they can send a guy right out. Lying, thieves.

This is interesting and I will tell you why:

Several months ago, my shop does a job for Insurance CO "X", and they are a company that has hit glass claims handled by NotSoSafelite Solutions. While the customer is here, NotSoSafelite Solutions says they cannot process the glass claim because the customer is getting windshield replacements in 2 different vehicles, and even though the first one went through without a hitch, they couldnt understand that the customer had another vehicle that also needed a w/s replaced. Anyway, we called their insurance company directly. Everything was taken care of...."just fax us the bill" the lady said. Well after we did the job, we faxed them the bill. I charged them regular price, none of this NotSoSafelite Solutions contracted rates crap.

3 weeks later I get paid.....direct deposit from NotSoSafelite Solutions and you guessed it, short paid about $100. Cant do anything about it. NotSoSafelite Solutions gets paid for handling a claim they didnt handle and I take the loss.

So when you guys on here say "No contract, we bill them what we want"....I dont understand how that works because NotSoSafelite will pay you "What the other shops will do the work for!!!!"

How many of you have had NotSoSafelite Solutions try and beat you to the job and steal your work yet?

How many times has NotSoSafelite Solutions not been able to "Verify Coverage"? On several occasions, the customer hung around the shop chatting for a while after we called the claim in to NotSoSafelite Solutions and guess what? They get a call from them on the cell phone (alternate #) trying to get them to accept NotSoSafelite Installation! Indies- tell NotSoSafelite Solutions that "you will hold while they contact the local agent at phone # XXX so they can verify coverage before the customer leaves the shop".

NotSoSafelite Solutions is getting extremely dirty. This is probably one deal with the devil that wont get signed on a renewal!

Scott, that whole deal, is very interesting. But if they could not handle the second vehicle, and you where told to send it in direct, and the big part of this now is, are you on an agreement with them? If you are on a signed contract with them then yes you have to bill them at their rates, because of the contract. But if in fact you are NOT on an agreement, and they couldn't and didn't handle the claim, then I would send a letter of intent to collect the unpaid balance, which by the way, would be subject to whatever monthly late charges for your state or area will allow. Most places it is 1.5% per month beyond 30 days. I would send that letter to both the TPA and the Ins Co, and would hold the Ins Co liable for the balance of the unpaid claim. And yes they are getting VERY dirty in how they are handling claims, and customers. So even if you are a participating shop, they are using any and all tactics to control the work to their favor. Makes me wonder why ANYONE would do business with deceitful, thieves. JMHO. I think they are hoping you will just accept what they gave you and walk away. Why because they know many will. And that is really sad, that so many will allow them to steal from them.

So Scott, are you on an agreement with them?

As of right now I am. That is very subject to change. Note the comment on my previous post about renewing my contract with the devil!

Yes, that is part of the problem,If you are in an agreement with them, you can't expect to get paid a "Fair" rate of what others pay, but you are stuck to that agreement. That's why I left lynx too, they did the same thing, well kind of. Had an agent tell me to do the job and send him the invoice, billed at my normal Ins rate they sent it in and allsnake shorted me,( I had no idea it was for allsnake), and I had no recourse because I was on lynx, that's when I said enough of that crud. It's all about lining "their" pockets. You can't have your cake and eat it too!

Bottom line is even if you try to coexist with them they are only interested in their own bottom line not yours. The time for change was a few years ago. But it is never too late to do the right thing! Good luck to you. Even when you participate there is no guarantee you will get the work, they control it, and the access to your customers! They WILL bleed you dry!

Sigh. It matters little how you chase those insurance dollars; whether through a TPA or not…whether with an assignment or not. At minimum you will either be subject to interpretation of state law, which insurers will gladly spend money to ensure their “interpretation” is accepted; or to policy language, which is drafted by insurers.

And all the while, the trough gets narrower and shallower.

Welcome to here and now.

Mr. Reality, First off I would like to address your statement of "chasing Insurance Dollars". Now as a business owner, I am in a "service" orientated business, that repairs and replaces GLASS, auto and residential. Now, I do not "Chase" any certain type of work, but I offer a service to repair and replace All types of glass. Next, if in this service that I perform, happens to be covered by an insurance policy, and I perform work for an insured, does that mean I am "chasing" ins work? Mr. reality, From where I am coming from, I am not chasing ins work, I am trying to service "MY" customers, that I advertise to, and build a relationship with. You sound as if anyone who does work, and gets paid thru an ins co. is chasing their work, but in fact, I chase local customers, who need my service, so please do not patronize us, or label us as "ins chasers".

I will agree with you that in fact, ins co's ensure their interpretation of the law thru lobbying, and whatever, and it is in many cases drafted by "them".

But, as you keep saying, "the trough gets narrower and shallower", PLEASE tell us all how do you expect business owners, who are only trying to "service their customers", how in the heck do you propose we deal with the lies, steering, stealing, and control of access to "our" customers and the biggie, "PRICING"? This is what we need to hear, not all this "welcome to the here and now", Bull crud, because the here and now will in fact change at some point, and become the that was, because nothing remains the same forever, Sir, and I say sir respectfully, for now, because that too can change. Just because the Insurance industry is reaping the benefits of raising premiums and lowering claims, thru control of those claims, this does not mean they are going to continue this trend. The hammer swings both ways but please clarify, who your statements serve, ,,,,,
Ins co's? shop owners?????? tpa's???? who do "YOU" sir serve with your statements,,, or am I asking too much from you?
Sincerely,
SHOPOWNER

So please answer these things. and thank you.

It would appear that another someone refuses to accept reality…that someone would rather keep doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result.

It is admirable that you wish to service your customer, but maybe you should sit down and understand, truly understand what service(s) you are actually capable of providing. We’ll assume for the moment you are a glass craftsman and that is your core business. We’ll even assume you are very good at it. :)

Now, excluding the stupidity of the past (hindsight is twenty twenty) and the thought control currently exercised by insurers and their surrogates, what makes you think that you have the capability or right to interpret contract law? Did you go to law school? Are you licensed to practice law? Heck, what gives you the right to settle claims? Are you a licensed insurance adjuster? Bottom-line, what gives you the right to “service” your customers by assuming their role as a beneficiary under their insurance policy?

And if you are dumb enough to continue the practice, how can you justify complaining about how insurers or their surrogates are treating you. Haven’t you intentionally stepped into the shoes of their policyholders? Thus, if they treat their policyholders, the people that actually pay them like crap, why would you expect to be treated differently?

Fortunately, for those tuned into reality, changes are occurring. And ironically enough, it is happening because of the very insurer practices you complain about. Soon that trough you deliberately feed at will shrink to the point of being unable to sustain life. For many who refuse to accept what is right in front of them, it is already too late. He!!, there seems to be a whole association full of those folks.

The true businesspeople among us understand that this change is occurring and are accommodating it. Why? Because as you say, it is inevitable. Or, to say it another way, it is here and now.

The solution? To put it as succinctly as possible, it really is as simple as “who is the customer”. And if that simple concept is understood, we should likewise be able to understand that we should charge appropriately for the actual service we provide; and we certainly should understand who should be responsible for paying us.

Just one person’s opinion…If it doesn’t work for you, keep doing the same ol’, same ol’. But please understand that for some your lamenting is both pitiful and laughable.

Shopowner,

I would save your breath and your time. Reality is an individual preaching on this forum that does not work in this industry and has no clue what we must contend with. Any one who comes on this forum and criticizes those who are working hard to change this industry has no credibility in my book. There is no valid defense for what is going on and insurance claims are not going to leave the scene any time soon. When this individual identifies just exactly what his stake is in this industry we maybe can place some confidence in what he preaches. This forum is full of people trying to undermine those fighting for fairness and not accepting the concept that we have to accept TPAs and work "around" them. Mike Huckabee had an interesting name for those who write blogs, etc, from anonymity, "cowards." Constructive dialogue is good, criticism is not.

I remain,

Mike in NY

Mike,

Right on cue with the same ol', same ol'. LMAO

Again Mikey, put your ego aside. It is about the message, not the messenger. If you don’t agree, so be it. I was merely responding to a question or two.

However, here is another tidbit for you. I hear that a number of insurers are more than a little "concerned" with Belsafe's advertising campaign. Seems they fear an increase in claim frequency, especially for repair claims.

Guess what solution they are probably considering. :) Are you ready?

Welcome to the here and now.

Reality,

No ego here, just good old fashioned passion. It is about the messenger because that is the very issue of credibility. What is your stake? I know your history with the collision folks. People posting on this forum with no hands on experience should not be preaching here.

I remain,

Mike in NY

Mike:
Again I have to agree with you. Reality's position makes no sense to me. 90% + of my business is insurance work. Has been for 30 years. State consumer laws in my state are definitely in favor of the consumer and glass shop. And VERY FEW insurance policies allow the price fixing and short paying that's taking place.If they had language to allow them to do what they're doing it probably would conflict with state laws.

Thanks Mad Dog....I agree.

Reality says that it is not about the messenger. I disagree. There are many posting here that have no stake in the AGRR industry, just want to cause problems and raise eyebrows. My understanding is that he posts under many screen names - and that is Reality. How credible is that? My friends, it is about the messenger, No Ego, Just Passion. The industry is broken and it will be fixed. Insurance claims will not disappear over night. Reality probably believes that the world is going to end in 2012 (LOL). And there is no reason why independents should have to accept and "work around" TPAs. I will never buy into that philosophy.

I remain,

Mike in NY

What is this talk of sudden crediblity where none is expected?

Neither of you have any risk associated with the glass industry; but you both have plenty to say.

Those who participate with TPA's, enable TPA's to perform their evil deeds.


Who is the Customer?

efforts,

On a forum where people should be exchanging constructive ideas or even having constructive disagreements, credibility is important. So what in the heck are u talking about? Would you like to tell me how you do not lose any of your potential customers to TPAs? Why don't you tell us how you work "around" the TPAs and therefore, they do not impact your business.

Just "Who is the Customer" - we can agree on who it is, but we should also agree that we do not service all of our customers....

I remain,

Mike in NY

Unfortunately Mad Dog, we don’t all live in Minnesota. Some of us live in places like New York or Michigan or California or Texas or just about anywhere else. And some of us won’t follow the lead of certain IGA board members to become lackeys of a certain TPA…you know the go along to get along types.

Furthermore, as that latest “advisory” from the IGA attests (or implies anyway), good luck even in your state on going forward basis.

BTW – how does your 90% this year compare to last? :)

Welcome to the here and now.

And Mikey,

Good question. Why not query each IGA board member about how they "get around the TPAs"? LMAO

I'm sure there are many IGA members who would love to hear/read their answers.

And please be sure to start at the top. :)

Reality,

There you go implying that you have a stake in this industry......

I remain,

Mike in NY

Mr. Reality, wow, You must have read something different than I typed. In my last post asking you a few questions, where or how was I interpreting or practicing law?
Also I have no interest in settling claims I would prefer if this industry was cash just like residential glass, customer pays us and they take it to whom they have their contract with.
Also I have a right to sell and to service any and all customers who come to me. If they want their ins co to pay me that's their right and choice, but I truly would love to work with just the real "who is the customer".
You sir have read me very wrong, I am NOT one of the same ol same ol kind of person. I am not a network hugger,nor do I belong to any, or an ins claim lover. What trips my trigger every day, is taking care of PEOPLE. That sir is what drives me, and about the only thing in this industry that I truly LOVE.
And yes I am a craftsman, and ALWAYS try my hardest to do the very best workmanship possible. And 99.9% of my customer base believes that too.
So after all of your insinuating, and reading me all wrong, you never did answer anything I asked straight up. You sir would make a fine politician by dancing around the questions with clever verbiage. Almost funny.

I beg to differ sir. You read the answer. You probably already knew the answer. You just don’t like it. No one can help you with that.

Shopowner,

When you are not in the trenches it is easy to talk theory. If this guy is so knowledgeable about the subject, let's hear just who he is. I know Mike Huckabee can tell you who he is. He can criticize a lot of folks who work in this industry and are trying to right the industry, but I can assure you he has never installed a windshield or seen it done.
Continue to work hard, take care of your customers and you will succeed.

I remain,

Mike in NY

be disease resistant

Who duo this up? Ohm, thanks for doing it again! LOL

Dear Oneofmany, and everyone else out there.
You do NOT have to sign any of the network agreements. You can still be listed in their databases as a vendor to do auto glass work. If you continue to do good work and take care of your customers, you will build your own brand and reputation. You can still invoice the networks for the work that you do even if you have NOT signed the network participation agreement. Just make sure that your customers know that they have the right to choose your shop.

One last note, You can easily send written notice to any network requesting to stay in the database but not as a network participant. In other words, you can cancel any agreement especially one that you may have felt coerced into signing. One thing is for sure, you will not miss all of those referrals!

Perhaps a summarization is needed: Bill direct OR collect from your customer. Almost seems too simple!

Good answer Jimmy.

Reality - you are still talking over their heads and they don't understand the obvious "reality" about processing a claim without a license or UPL.

Mike - you are a kind soul but you cannot fix this industry. It is broken and Reality isn't the one who broke it or prevents it from being fixed. He is well informed and I seriously doubt if he has "no skin" to some degree in this game. Nobody would go to the lengths he has without some motive.

It really is this simple: Collect from the customer what you sold him/her. How they pay (insurance proceeds, AMEX, Visa, MC, cashier's check, bartering cattle/beef/milk, etc...) is up to your company policy. The true "proof of loss" is what they paid you for the repairs. And, it is much easier than you think to collect short pays from a well informed consumer.

We have done short pays for several years and use the same software the IGA is touting. We do things methodically and we sell only "Quality." We run our business as a business should run and our rates are based upon "reality" and not some screwball price that is made up by those who don't replace or repair windshields/AG.

The irony is that the IGA has an answer because their "Claims Harbor" or whatever they call it; is completely transparent to the customer, shop, or even the insurer who may be responsible to pay the proof of loss.

If everyone adopted this mentality, there wouldn't be a need for a TPA in the first place. This informs the consumer and keeps everyone honest and responsible for their own actions and words. Isn't that what we are all looking for anyway? Some real accountability?

There is nothing we can't document for the consumer and their protection (they are our customer) and display it to them (or whomever they want to see it) in real time. This is an invaluable service that our customers love.

They have the documentation (and any evidence of interference in our repair contract) they may need to get their agent or insurer to pay the real "proof of loss;" our invoice. If the shops in this country were truly independent, they would adopt this technology (our best ROI since we opened 18 years ago) and the "dog would wag the tail, instead of the tail wagging the dog."

Our short payment litigation is down almost 30% because we have found that it is getting easier to collect from the customer; we just supply the same ammo that we would have used in court. They get paid in less than 10-14 days usually.

Mike - weren't you running the IGA when this happened? Why shouldn't you get behind something that you were part of? This is game changing and it's pretty simple to figure out.

Why is everyone still complaining about the same things? I haven't posted anything in a long time and return to discover that the same topics are being brought up.

Even this company that provides this message board hasn't done any reporting on this simple but truly effective "cloud/Internet" based solution. You would think that even "Key Comm." might investigate this. I can find out about a cracked windshield on an airplane but I can't find out about this solution that eliminates the need for a TPA?

When will it become obvious that we must put the customer first and provide them with all the information that is theirs to begin with. We need to quit interfering in their insurance contract and treat them how they deserve to be treated. I know this requires a whole lot more "education" but it pays off like a slot machine in Ocean's 13.

This is what is wrong with this industry. We are still complaining about the same things and not looking for new solutions. This too should serve as a definition of "insanity." Don't take my word for it; start looking around on the Internet for information about how you can change your approach and your vision for the future.

Don't wait around for another 6-8 months (since I posted, if not longer) trying to find out about doing short pays or; how to increase your customer's bond with you using your technology and at the same time, arm your customer with the ammo to get reimbursed.

It's time for you all to get outside of your comfort zone and do some real intelligence gathering. Then, come back and share it at this waterhole.

Just be careful to type well. If you put anything in "quotations" and then read what you're going to post, this Board seems to be allergic to them. It just placed about 150 backslashes in what I wrote and I had to delete them all.

Earl, you may not have noticed this thread is 4 years old. Same old story, same resolve. Collection on short pays is going strong on the side of indy shop owners. It is pathetic that insures are still short paying when in fact shops are collecting not only the short pay but also filing fees, admin fees, and late fees, and arbitration fees.

So average short pay ends up with double to triple and WAY MORE to fight the fraud going on from tpa's and insurers.

When they alter an invoice they are committing FRAUD. State revenue depts, have already stated it clear and concise. The amount of lost sales tax from network pricing, and short pays is costing states revenue Multiple millions.

Your post is very good, Just know this is old info, and too many indies can't run their businesses properly to fight this threat. This is why the industry is so messed up.

Shop Owner - you make my point exactly. All of the costs of short-paying should be documented. If everyone started using this technology, it would become obvious to any concerned legislator, AG, Grand Jury, etc... that there is "price-fixing" running rampant.

Remember, price-fixing is still illegal even if the proponents of it retort that it "keeps claim's costs down." The only way to prove it is to get enough glass shops invoices (their real ones; before they're rejected by the Network) to prove that this entire industry shouldn't be shielded by anti-trust exemptions.

It would cost shops even less to operate this way because we save a bundle using our Cloud/Internet based software. We pay less than a 1/3 of what we paid before. This was the best ROI since we opened business almost 2 decades ago.

The shops (thousands of us) should control the platform of how the service is provided; not a couple of hundred insurers who decided to outsource their claims to someone who isn't in either the repair or insurance contract. This is further and the ultimate proof, of "tampering" or; "altering information used in the reporting of a claim."