Hello everyone and welcome to the 2007 AGRR Technical Forum. Deb Levy has asked me to contribute and keep an eye on the entries going into the forum.

I am not here to be the "answerman", but I will answer any questions that may come up concerning proper installation. The best information about installation problems will come from you experts in the field, not me. Ideas, hints and shortcuts are not a dirty word and should be cultivated for the common good. However, there may be hints and shortcuts that are unsafe to the customer and/or to the technician. These are the items I will comment on.

For those that don't know me, you can learn a little about me on the www.autoglassuniversity.com website and click on the button "Experienced Staff". My credentials are listed there.

In my training classes I always say that "a good training course is one where everyone learns something including the instructor". I have learned a lot on this forum and hope to continue to do so.

So, I just want to thank Deb and her staff for having me, and I hope I will help those out there to do a safe, quality installation.

Bob Beranek, President
Automotive Glass Consultants & Auto Glass University

How do you do a mobile w/s install below 40 Temp. when no one makes a pinchweld primer that will perform properly under 40 Temp.?

Thanks for the introduction Bob. Look forward to further discussions in the Tech Forum.

And a great opening question SGlass. A question that will likely NOT get an answer, but a practice that this industry MUST get to the bottom.

Greetings Bob,

Welcome to the forum. We have a lot of fun here. You'll like it...just don't let it keep you from getting any work done! It can have that tendancy!

BOB :) whats up, thanks for standing up for me at AGRSS look forward to a ruling on the R&R issue(s)

Bob is funny,Easy to compete with.Welcome bobber.

You guys don't make it easy. The first question is a challenge, but here it is.

First try to get the vehicle in to your shop for installation. However, if that is impossible, here are some things to do.

1. Talk to your adhesive company for their recommendations.
2. Make sure you're using urethanes that cure to 0 degrees F. If the temp is lower than 0, don't do it.
3. Warm your glass in the shop and prep it in a warm environment. Make sure that glass preps are completely dry before loading it into your truck.
4. Handle the primed glass carefully to keep from contaminating the bonding surface. Use gloves, towels.
5. When you arrive at the vehicle, ask for the keys and permission to keep the vehicle running throughout the installation. Start the vehicle and put the defroster on full blast, heat and fan.
6. Then pre-inspect the vehicle, protect the vehicle with drop cloths, fender covers and tape.
7. By this time the defroster is blowing hot air and slightly warming up the interior. You only have to have the metal to forty degrees for pichweld primer to work.

Remember most use of pinchweld primer is for covering scratches and not for adhesion sake. If the primed area is outside of the bonding area, then the temperature is not as important. However, if the primer is used for adhesion sake, I would make sure the metal is at forty degrees, even if I have to wait a little longer for the metal to warm up.

8. Now start taking the vehicle apart.
9. Don't take the glass out of the heated service vehicle until right before setting it.

This installation technique works and it is more comfortable for the tech. The warm air from the defrosters are blowing in their face through out the installation.

If the defroster doesn't work or you can't get the permission or keys to start the vehicle, Then reschedule at a warmer time or offer shop service.

Hope this helps.

Glad to see you're here, Bob.

I met you in Tampa a couple years ago and would just like to thank you for providing the help that you do in so many ways.
Will you be teaching at any A.G.T.I. classes in 07
I have attended twice and gained so much that I would like to go again, Just before taking my Master exam for the first time.
Bruce was AWSOME, ( Name withheld)was ok but I would love to sit in one of your classes.
I sent one of my techs. last year and he loved it, Although I think he didn't get as much out of it as he could have due to the teacher (Name withheld)
So, where are your classes for 07?

For the rest of you; Listen to Bob, he is a wealth of knowledge, and just a real nice guy.

"Remember most use of pinchweld primer is for covering scratches and not for adhesion sake".

Does this mean urethane will not adhere to pinchweld primer?
It has been said, do not get primer on the urethane bed.
If I get a car in that has been striped and repainted, including the pinchweld. What do we use for a primer on the pinchweld???????

To Lee:

Pinchweld primer is used to promote adherence when it is applied to paint or body primer. The instuction I gave was referring to cold weather installations when the job was a replacement. The pinchweld primer in that case is used to cover scratches and not for adhesion sake.

You should never prime over existing urethane. Urethane sticks better to itself.

If you'll notice, later in the instructions, I mentioned the situation when primer is used for adhesion. In that case, the vehicle should be brought to the shop or rescheduled for another warmer day.

To Pinky,

Thank you for the kind words I truly appreciate the support.

Yes, I am teaching the AGTI this year in, Cypress CA, Davie, FL, Sandy , UT, Grand Rapids, MI.

If you're looking for a way to bone-up on installation, take a look at my new training website www.autoglassuniversity.com. You can either take classes geared to a particular subject matter or take the course as a stand alone program that is much cheaper than sending your guys away for a week. However, if hands on training is important, I will look forward to meeting you and your employees at one of the AGTIs.

UUHHH... Excuse me but you could have the inside up to 100 Temp. You still have to take the glass off and remove old urethane from pinchweld. By the time this is done the pinchweld temp. will drop to below 40 Temp.Sorry still not an acceptable awswer.
Please try again. Not trying to be difficult just trying to save lives.

Just went over the Auto Glass University website, and on the Home Page, it looks like that tech is trimming the old urethane with a long knife. Do any of you regularly use a long knife to trim urethane? I quit that years ago to help eliminate scratching the inner corner of the pinchweld.

Hey!!! How come I wasn't given this job? This isn't fair!

I thought the 40 degree factor was not just primer curing but also condensation on metal or glass either one.

I'm scratching my head reading this, and I got to say that Sglass makes a heckuva good point.

You pull that glass and even if htat metal was warm, its gonna get cold in one heck of a hurry.

I don't see how the defroster can deal with that no matter how warm they are, and the condensation issue from the changing temp of the metal has to cause concern here too, dosen't it?

I get what Bob is saying about priming scratches for corrosion resistance as opposed to priming for adhesion. Makes perfect sense.

Being htat Bob brought that up, and knowing that all the urethanes cure from the outside in, now that 216 is gone, can anyone be sure that your initial walls of cure are on the trimmed urethane bed every time? Since you can't, Bob, shouldn't a person be refreshing the old primer outside the existing trimmed bed wiht new pinchweld primer for adhesions sake, so the green strength you would be depending on to meet FMVSS minumums in the (let's use 1hr) one hour time are on a good bonding surface? We have pinch primed everything outside the originally bed to refresh the pinch for, well for as long as I can remember, for these reasons.

Gunning the body reduces the chances of wetout/contact outside of the trimmed bed, but no one can be sure to be that perfect not to have that happen every time. If you do, your initial cure is on an unprimed, or unrefreshed surface, and if its cold even the latest fast cure thanes cure through slowly after the initial green strength cure happens.

So this has to be about more than just scratches, procedurally speaking, dosen't it?

Mabey I'm just picking nits here, but I thought this was important. Sorry for the book.

Whats wrong with using a long knife to trim down the old 'thane? I do it. Its the way I was taught and I've not found a better way yet. I have seen people do it with a utility knife, but in my opinion that leaves the urethane track not nearly as smooth as using the long knife.

True, if your not careful you can do a lot of scratching with the long knife, but you just have to take your time and be careful...most scratches can be avoided. And I always stock plenty of pinchweld primer for when you you get those previously done shields where the urethane is smooshed right up onto the body of the vehicle and hidden under a fat piece of universal molding...'cause on these your going to scratch it!

use sika, in cold weather their primer can be used under forty just have to allow extra primer cure time. i did one yesterday,it was 25 degrees out, the sun was shining and after i primed it, it took 9 minutes to lose its tack, i used my infra-red point and shoot thermometer and in the sun the pinchweld was 48 degrees.
bob, usually, you will learn that sglass usually justs wants to argue not actually learn anything. everybody needs to read the sika cold temp. procedures in their tech manual. if they are doing cold weather installs.

Sika is great stuff. I've done many cold weather installs with it and had very few if any problems.

Nice try bqa show me the Tech Specs to back up your position.

To Sglass,

The first goal of a good technician is to not scratch the pinchweld in the first place. According to all of the adhesive manufacturers, and I think they know what their talking about, freshly exposed existing urethane (feu) is the best bonding surface to bond to. That is why they instruct that the tech leave 1-2mm of existing bead to bond to. If you don't scratch the pinchweld you don't have to use any primer.

Condensation will not occur on feu only on the metal. So the installation in cold weather on feu is not a concern. If priming is necessary, warm the area, anyway you can, and prime it. Then keep it warm until the primer has dried.

If you go down to the paint or primer on every replacement, your doing the job wrong.

You seem very knowledgeable, where did you get your training?

To Mark2

The goal, as mentioned in the previous answer to sglass, is to leave an existing bead on the body as your bonding surface and, make that your "roadmap" for newly applied urethane. If there is an area that concerns you about new urethane coming in contact directly to the metal, then your concerns on condensation and primer application and or refreshing is valid and should be completed as described above.

To everyone,

I do not promote the installation of glass in extreme cold weather. In my shop, we always communicate to the customer the concerns we have in relation to cold weather installs. However, in past experiments the procedures described previously has and will work as long as the technician does not dawdle between removing the glass and appling the primer. If extenuating circumstances occur and the tech feels that the metal was exposed to the cold temperature too long, then the tech should warm it in some way for the primers to dry.

My recommendation is to not do installations in the open air, in extreme temperatures. Sell the customer on quality of workmanship.

I hold an alternate seat on the AGRSS council that put the installation guidelines together. Been doing AGR for 35 years. Attened various training sessions.
And you??

To everyone,

If you will all look at my cold weather instructions, the first step is to check with your adhesive manufacturer for proper cold weather instructions with their particular type of urethane. Each brand of urethane has it's own chemistry and we as technicians should respect their procedures on proper bonding, they're the experts not us.

I would suggest that continuous training, be part of your annual, if not monthly schedule. This can be accomplished by checking updates on adhesive manufacturers websites, or enrolling in a course for proper installation techniques and procedures.

To sglass

Your an AGRSS alternate? Great! Who are you? I'm on the Board of Directors and I would love to sit down and talk at the next meeting in February.

Go to www.autoglassuniversity.com and click on Know your Instructors. My credentials are listed there.

One reason we do not use a long knife to trim existing urethane is that on many vehicles it is nearly impossible to trim that existing urethane to 2mm without cutting headliners, 'A' pillar interior trims, etc. with the long knife.

I have removed many installs that come loose from exactly that technique. The previous installer used a long knife, or appeared to, as you could see how the technician laid the long knife against the interior trim or headliner as he trimmed the existing urethane. The outer edge of the existing bead is cut low profile, usually with scratches on the pinch weld riser, and the inside edge of the bead is near 1/4" thick or more because of the angle of the trimming tool.

Further, when removing these installs, you can clearly see where the new urethane did not bond in those thicker areas and because the outer edge, where the bonding does take place, is so narrow, leaks and holes develop in that area of the bead.

Not saying it can't be done, but this is the primary reason we do not let our installers use long knives to trim existing urethane beads. That and the fact we have much better tools for trimming available to each installer that make trimming easier and faster with almost no scratching.

I'd just like to add that when I designed Mr. Beranek's site for him I borrowed some photos from the first auto glass olympics so these images do not directly reflect activities at Auto Glass University. Stock photos of auto glass replacements are hard to come by.

OK Bob check your email I should be there.

sglass
we've been through this before, read the sika tech manual on their website, it very clearly outlined in the cold weather procedures, but you already know that. you just choose to argue whether than admit there are ways to do it.

sglass
go back to the thread we had on primer temps, i am sure the website address is still on there for sika.

http://www.sikaindustry.com/ipd-Tech-Training-Manual-04.pdf

found address look at the top of page 19

Hey Bob
Email was returned as undeliverable.
Why?
Will retry

Maybe it is time to change the topic?

Perhaps to single installs vs. two-man sets? How the new urethane bead is or is not moved, compromised, or otherwise when using this technique on most newer vehicles? I have yet to see a single man install (most vehicles) where the bead of urethane is not moved or rolled over when setting the glass.

Or maybe how none of this really matters as long as no less than 75%, or 25% of one half, of the windshield remains bonded to meet FMVSS?

Or maybe...


...seems we can go on forever and that is why this forum is great.

It will be fun to look back in say 5 years and see how far we hopefully have come in this industry in regards to safety and consumer awareness.

bqa do you own shops or strictly mobile?
I have read your spec and it says and I quote " as an alternative it is suggested the vehicle be moved to an environment where the temperature exceeds 40F."
HMMM I WONDER why they bother to put that in?

CCC.

Good post. If you can make trimming faster and easier please let me know how. I'm always open to learning new things. E-mail me if you like.

To bqa -
Quote:
"use sika, in cold weather their primer can be used under forty just have to allow extra primer cure time."

I looked at Sika's site and did not find any stats that advocates using their primer under 40 degrees.
Could you provide us with Sika's stats on this?

Ron

bqa...I didn't catch page 2 in time to see your link.
SIKA says, below 40 degrees may take longer than 10 minutes to dry...although they don't say how low the temp can go too.

sglass
we are mobile only, if it is snowing or raining or below 20 degrees the dealerships we do work for let us use a bay or we use a customers garage if it will work.
ron,
i don't think that sika would give you below 40 instructions if there product didn't work. which we have had no problems doing cold weather installs.

also, when i read the agrss standard it says to follow your adhesives installation procedures.

bqa,
We are members of AGRSS...my Father Carl is the founder of it.
We of course follow the Manufactures instructions. I had not looked into SIKA materials for some time, so was not aware they allowed use of the primers below 40.
Most of our jobs are mobile...we prep the W/S before leaving. The only potential problem is when the primer needs to be placed over the area, which the adhesive will touch, then it's an issue when temps are below 40.
We are using SRP's Velocity at present...a very good product and much more reasonably priced than SIKA or Essex.

I am a mobile only operator and do the same as bqa. I use a garage or bay when it is below freezing or raining outside. I also use Sika urethane and have had no problem with cold weather installs.

I have the same standard to cold weather as bqa. If it is under about 25, it has to be inside. As to 1 and 2 man sets, I work alone most of the time, but have lil buddy and it kicks ass! The only vehicle I have had a problem using it on was an 05 Vette, couldnt get the alignment just right on the dry set so I called a friend to have him help me.

"Hello everyone and welcome to the 2007 AGRR Technical Forum. Deb Levy has asked me to contribute and keep an eye on the entries going into the forum."

Hey Webmaster. Why isn't this on the Tech Forum????

d-boy - glad to hear the lil buddy is working so well for you. We have looked into this tool in the past, however most of our install are indoors and with two technicians (something I think HAL calls "inefficient"?). Might have to check into the lil buddy again.

As far as the condensation issue is concerned, condensation will only occur when introducing an object that is colder than the surrounding air into an atmosphere of increased moisture. Your glasses fog up when you come into a warmer, more humid environment, not the other way around. It is more likely that condensation will occur when you pull a cold vehile into your warm shop, not the other way around. If you pull a warm vehicle into a colder, less humid area, evaporation will be promoted, not condensation.