Where did the primer temp string go to? Am I just missing it below?

Did anyone find a primer for applying below 40?

I have no clue about any primer that can be used under40 temp

I have not found one yet .

I would be very interested in any info regarding this also. Safe primer application is a genuine concern for any of us whose primary goal is a quality, safe glass installation for our customers.

I was asked to remove that thread because of some overly negative comments that were made about AGRSS. Sorry.

Brian - is there anyway to recreate that thread and just leave out those negative posts? I thought the thread was very constructive for the most part.

Also, may I ask for everyone else, what exactly is a "negative" post regarding AGRRS? Maybe I missed someone saying AGRSS was a bunch of *&%#$, which most of us do not believe at all, and we appreciate the efforts by all involved.

I hope they were not mine. I was just stating that I was going to write a letter to AGRSS to ask for a ruling/interpretation of the primer issue above the manufacturer guideline terminology.

I try to discuss ideas here and get other perspectives. Then contact AGRSS or NGA, or whomever, in a formal way about the topic as we all should when we have a question or issue.

As I have said, I have found most in the industry to be more than helpful in this way. From Leo Cyr, Dale Malcolm, Carl Thompkins, to all of you at AGRR (Les, Brigid, and you Brian.)

I do think this primer issue is something we need to discuss and get to the heart of.

http://www.sikaindustry.com/ipd-Tech-Training-Manual-04.pdf

Scroll to page 18 for low temp instructions.

If you can not get it in writing, do not assume you can do it.

Unfortunately with Bravenet, once its gone its gone. I do recall that it started as a discussion and/or debate regarding the use of primers in temperatures under 40 degrees. I believe (was that you Sglass?) they were inquiring as to whether or not any actual research data existed to prove that primers used in temps under 40 resulted in windshield failure.

Normally the policy is to just remove offending posts from a thread unless the thread has gotten to the point where it is just fodder for negative posts and/or back and forth insult throwing.

I can't remember the exact wording but I recall that a comment was made that insinuated that AGRSS just collects money and does nothing else. There were two posts in question. I can't accurately say why the entire thread was taken down since it was not my decision.

It is not our intention to deprive you (the industry) of information or hinder your ability to share information with one another but guidelines do have to exist and no matter how hard we try to make things black and white, there is still an awful lot of grey area.

Thanks FredO-

So we now know it CAN be done(wonder if SIKA crashed tested this type of application?). Might have to email them and ask for that data.

So how many ASAP users are putting the glass back in their trucks after they "activate" it, and how do they know the truck is warm enough?

How many are heating the glass and pinchweld with a heat gun to +40degrees before applying the activator or primer?

Does anyone else think that the glass will then have condensation on it as it cools back down, either on the glass or on the applied activator? Might have to test this out.

I have been assigned a task to see if a urethane product can truly be used in low temperatures, if it has been crash tested under those conditions, and then check supply and cost effectiveness for potential customers that might request cold weather mobile service, as we are not going to give-away those costs. The real challenge might be to get a tech that wants to go do the replacement in 20 degree weather (and I am not sure I would blame him/her).

I want to thank everyone for their help so far.

Brian - I understand. Although I do think some think AGRSS has to date simply "collected money", they need to dig deeper. AGRSS has in my opinion alread started a ball rolling that I only see gathering more and more momentum. I think the fear comes from some that fear AGRSS will not have any "bark" let alone any "bite". Many of us have longed for an organization that gives us a return we can visibly see for our money. One that enforces their logo, the ideals behind it, and that the consumer will ask for. It will happen with AGRSS, and in our area it already is.

Keep up all the hard work everyone. And use SAFEWINDSHIELDS.com it really gets agents and consumers to think before they buy.

Whoa people
Lets not make a quantum leap here. Reading the text it says, May require 25 min or more for primer to dry under 40 temp. It goes on to say, it would probably be best if the car was brought into a controlled environment above 40 temp.
They are pushing a gray area at best.

on page 23 it says 10 minutes for complete urethane removal, does not include scratches where it isn't a bonding surface, then it is unaffected.

bqa- I guess I must be lost? Where does it say ONLY 10 minutes on page 23?

Everything I read on page 23 says at LEAST ten minutes, then you should test with clean nitrile glove to determine if the primer is dry in a spot that will not receive urethane.

However, despite the "body" primer, which you claim you only used to cover scratches on 200 installations, did you follow the cold weather instructions noted on page 18 for the SIKA activator (glass prep we will call it)?

The body primer may only take 10 minutes in certain conditions with certain circumstances (not a complete urethane removal), however the Activator low weather instructions seem pretty clear. 3 options are given for Activator application in cold weather. Which did you use, or did you use a mixture of all 3 methods, or did you use any of the documented methods?

I am not pointing a finger at you, I am using your experiences as an example because we were discussing in the "lost thread" that you had noticed NO problems with your cold weather techniques and we were discussing if the entire primer issue is in fact an issue at all.

Thanks again for everyone's input.

when i worked for those other companies we didn't do anything different in cold weather than normal. now i aktivate every w/s in my garage before i go out, when necessary. where the urethane doesn't touch the primer it is a mute point on how long it takes to dry, and on the rare occasion i do have to do full removal and lay urethane on primer i always check for to see if it is dry to touch.

and i said 200 installs per year over a 3-4 year period.

sglass
it doesn't say its "best" to do it in a controlled climate it says an "alternative"

If a primer is applied/activated in shop before going out, how is contamination prevented?

nitrile gloves and a van that isn't a pigsty

Bqa you say “on those rare occasions when I do a full removal” can I take that to mean you are not using the full cut method? The majority of what I read and the dominant opinion of the pros is the full cut method is the way to go.

i thought according to everyone the acceptable method was to leave 1-2mm of existing urethane? correct or not? or are you once again trying to get around answering a question? do you remove all the urethane on every job to bare metal? i don't think so and i don't think anyone does, including myself, i don't know if you have trouble reading or just want to fight constantly becuase you are the only person in the glass industry that knows how to install a w/s but personally i am done defending myself to you because you have lost all credibility and i think everyone who reads this thread will agree.

and as far as i know all urethane manufacturers are against priming over existing urethane

Not trying to be argumentative. Trying to get a clear picture of what you are doing and how you are doing it. You don’t need to defend yourself to me. I am looking for facts not opinions on proper installations. You have not experienced problems with cold weather installations in you 200+ installations. In my career so far I have installed 21,000+ windshields. Doesn’t make me better then you just means I have seen long term effects (years) of installations done and the effects they have had. I strive to stay current, things change every day.

Why would anyone want to do cold weather installs anyways?Between the plastic parts (that don't bend,just crack)and the moisture after the w/s and pinchweld are warmed up just seems to be more of an effort than anything else.With me personally,anywhere under 50 degrees and it's put inside.My hands have been frostbitten once too many times and get real cold real fast.I can't seem to do a replacement wearing gloves to keep my hands warm.I cannot believe that a customer would not understand.
Maybe i'm just getting too old for that kind of work.

Inside for me ALWAYS.

I have to agree. I used to even do chip repairs in sub zero weather, froze my hands too many times, won't do it anymore! Under 50 degrees comes inside for me too. Once I explain it to the customer it's "no problem, I want the best". I have never liked the idea of priming the glass and hauling it around. Used to be glass primers once applied should be set within 20 min to a half hour. For me once dry I set, prepriming and letting dust and dirt in the air get to it is not for me. I'm not saying right and wrong,, but this is what I am most comfortable with!

I'm with you VT. When its below 40 I tell the customer they have two choices. #1 have a heated well lighted garage with plenty of working room or #2 bring it into the shop. Call a painter and ask him to come out and paint the outside of your house when its bellow 40 and see what his reaction will be.

These are exactly the points of view that I am wanting to know and understand bettter. I agree with most of you, that working in temperatures below 40 is not very fun, and many times, it can be darn right miserable and more difficult even.

Which leads to the dialog I want to get started regarding AGRSS and its role when it comes to low temperature replacements. I believe at this time AGRSS refers only to "manufacturer guidelines" for low temperature installations. 40degrees has been mentioned because that is the temperature most urethane manufacturer's primers are reccommended for application, with some having special low temperature procedures.

So appears it is technically possible to do low temperature installations, but is it humanly possible as well? What kind of jobs are being performed in cold weather? What level of quality, safety, and service can be achieved for both the consumer and the technicians subjected to these temperatures? If a tech's hands are freezing, nose running, etc. how good can the installation be when his primary focus is on not freezing to death. I hate cold weather, but I understand other people like cold weather and do not mind working outside when it is only 10 degrees. So when is it to cold, if at all?

So where does these leave us? We now know at least one urethane manufacturer says it's primer/activator can be used in cold weather using certain low temperature procedures,(and I am glad to see BQA pre-activating each job now. Much safer for you and your customers my friend). We also know some technicians like cold weather vs. others who do not (like myself).

Can, will, or should AGRSS be able to incorporate a temperature standard of some type to protect consumer safety, technicians from frostbite, and give all of us the ammo we need to tell the TPA/consumer exactly why the installation cannot be performed below ??degrees OUTDOORS? I am sure they do not want to tell any company "you cannot work because it is to cold" as I am sure none of us want to be told that (or maybe we do ). Or is this simply something each company must take into consideration, determine its needs, and formulate a plan?

Last thing --- AGRSS is still in its infancy, please remember this everyone. It is already making a difference, and I think all will see that over time it will become a standard with much more bark and much more bite than we have ever seen in our industry before. But it all takes time. The AGRSS self-audit is a great step. It puts into writing that what proceduers, products, and training you say your company uses or has are in fact true. I have total faith that in time, these self-audits will be reviewed and be rolled into an audit-validation program, a friendly spot-check perhaps, to make sure those flying the AGRSS banner are indeed not just AGRSS members, but are in fact AGRSS compliant as well to the best of their abilities. The last thing any of us want is a new logo that anyone and everyone will fly that then becomes meaningless. Keep up the good work and spread the word SAFEWINDSHIELDS.com

sglass
re-read my post, actually if you add it up i have done close to 1000 or more cold weather installs in 14 years of installing doing mainly one man mobile installs. as an estimate i would say i have had less than 50 comebacks in that time, this year i just had my first and i just pulled it and did it over. i have installed at least on average of 700 w/s per year with peak years of 1000-1200.we do mobile installs for the simple reason of overhead it is cheaper to not have a shop and everything that goes along with that. i now do 2-5 w/s per day instead of 8-10 for other companies. we live in an area where we have lots of winter temps but not much snow. i don't do installs below 20 at all which doesn't happen very often. i got sick of working 60 hours a week for safelite and others. if i was compromising quality i wouldn't be in business, our county has less than 30,000 residents and all my business is from referrals or dealerships, which by the way let me use their shops if necessary.i also do all the police cars, sheriffs, ambulances, and all state cars including game and fish, probation and parole in my area.i have redone so much of my own work i can say with confidence that my work is as good or better than in shop jobs. i don't cut any corners no matter how cold it is and use top quality materials, and charge for them. i grew up in my dads glass shop in boulder, co from the time i could crawl i was there watching and learning.

bqa - I cannot begin to tell you how happy and proud I was to read your lastest post.

The sad part is, you were lucky to have grown up around autoglass so you knew the proper way to do installs. How many of your former fellow employees did not? They simply finished a short training program and then were off on their own?

These are the technicians I wish we could protect. The technicians that are "trained properly" to cover the companies ***, but then given such high workload volumes and paid on insanely unfair bonus programs, that they cannot possibly complete the installations properly and still make a fair wage. Then when and if something goes wrong, the company fires the installer and blames him/her.

Would you agree this happens or in the least the potential is there?

it happened all the time, a long training program was 6 months usually it was 3.