We recently had an old U-haul truck in the shop with the pinchweld rusted the Ins was thru a network (begins with S and ends with E) and they would not approved xtra labor for the repair they informed us that Hanover ins. would not approve additional labor! I contacted Hanover on tues and they told me they would get back to me that day well two days later nothing so again I call the same person well they approved additional labor for the rust repair so my point is always take it one step above the network and you may get what you ask for! I try to never take no as an answer! Fight on

Agree completely. We did a dealer only sunroof which needed the broken tempered pieces cleaned out of the tracks. Lynx said that Allstate would only pay 1 hour labor for the whole job. After explaining the situation to Allstate directly they approved the additional labor requested. The kicker in this, is that when I called Nags to ask them how they come up for less than one hour for this job (.8 to be exact)they told me it was based on Mitchel's database for that dealer part #. Tell me...how can they have nags hours for non-nags parts? And if they do...Why can't I be privy to that information.

The networks will tell you whatever they have to to maintain their profit on a job.

I am more convinced than ever that the ins. co. have little to no idea just exactly how the networks operate with service providers and even less knowledge of the terms and "policies" they inact to keep the service and liability on service providers while they make the profit.

Everyone should be calling ins. co. and asking how much certain invoices were settled for, or have policyholders get the information. Most states have laws that allow a policyholder seek "full disclosure" of a claim settlement.

You just might be amazed at how much the networks are pocketing.

At the AGRSS meeting its been announced Ins. Co.s are not liable for rust repairs on previously poorly installed w/s. Great, the slop & droppers can do as they please with no ramifications. The Ins. Co. is off the hook for any repairs done by these people. The person wanting to do the correct job and the customer are now liable to correct the problems.
By AGRSS & Metrix standards you MUST fix the rust befor a new installation. Where does this leave the AGR shop trying to adhere to standards and get paid for the repair?

Very good question SGlass. I guess until someone sues the insurance companies for this it will never be an issue to them. Seems to me if the "industry standard" states it must be repaired and the insurance is responsible for returning the property to "pre-loss" condition, there should be some way to fight for this.

I believe it was also stated at the AGRSS conv. this year, that the insurance industry is debating this very same issue. At present time some companies cover it and some do not. I would think having it written into the AGRSS standard would make it more difficult for them to agrue against paying for it.

Sglass, who exactly stated that about insurance companies and rust repair, and what exactly was the context of the discussion in which the statement was made?

Details on this may be important. Glassbytes already has a misquote or out of context statement made by Dale Malcolm in its news report coming from NACE about rust repair and NAGS.

I wish to know the details if you have them please.

Thx!

I believe it came from here.
http://www.glassbytes.com/newsinsurance20061102.php
Bishoff, who is in charge of the company's glass program, pointed out that insurance is a highly regulated industry and explained what services the insurance industry offers and its role in the broader social context. He asked the audience how, as business owners, they manage risks. Buying insurance is one and he made the point that AGRSS is a manner of getting insurance for AGR businesses because they are performing their work in responsible ways which are designed to avoid losses.

He made the point that exclusions is one of four parts of a policy (along with declarations, insuring agreement and conditions) and corrosion in a vehicle comes under that category. "Rust is not part of the insurance policy and the insurance industry faces the question of whether or not it wants to include this," he stated.

I suspected as much, thanks for the clarification Sglass.

My description of this is "half truth", or at least a "lie of omission".

One must read the policy, but here, rust is excluded due to three specifically stated reasons: Abuse, Neglect, or normal Wear and Tear.

So, which one of these did the policyholder commit? If you actually have normal wear and tear rust, fine. If the owner abused or neglected his car that caused rust, fine. Exclude it.

Now, when the rust is caused by a poor previous installation, documentable by photographs clearly showing the 'cut lines' made by the previous install, and no effort to prime them with anything, how is it excluded?

Ambiguity in the policy is interpreted in favor of the policyholder in every case and has been found so in many court cases.

Read the recent articles about rust repairs in the recent AGRR's. It's a normal part of a normal autoglass installation, and it's required now by everybody who is anybody in this industry.

It does not matter what they exclude from the policy, it's part of the replacement. (if it exists to BE part of the replacement, of course)

The irony is, their own practices and system have caused most of the problem of why the rust problem exists. But it's also a graphic example of why insurers do NOT contract for repairs to customer's cars. They know just what's taking place, and want to benefit from the lowest possible price, but assume no liability for the repairs.

Hal can explain this, but he won't, for obvious reasons.

I agree Mark1. That is why I believe our battle is with the Ins. Co.s , TPAs and networks are on the safety front. Not steering or pricing. It should be mandatory windshields are replaced in controlled environments and replacement procedures are adhered to. I believe the pricing, steering and poor installation issues will then resolve themselves.
The Consumer (remember them?) they are the ones who will be the ultimate benefactor of this. A safe, solid installation could mean the difference between them walking away from an accident or an ambulance taking them away.

how can they have nags hours for non-nags parts? They told you that it is based on the mitchell pricing what was the year of the car and the part #, i do not think i have ever seen a NAGS # on a sunroof....

Thanx for your interest nuttyglassguy, and anyone else who might have input on this. It was a 2001 Volvo S80- dealer item # 30716376-6. When I asked the dealer if they had any info on what insurance would cover in their data base, they told me if it was shattered it would be 3 to 4 hours labor @ $80.00 per hour due to meticulous clean-up. So I was completely stunned when Lynx said .8 hours is all Allstate would pay for the whole job! (Which by the way would have been $35 bucks!) That's when I called Nags. They ask me for the dealer part # and said that according to Mitchell's data base, that that part # is listed as .8 hours labor! I then asked how I could access that info. Of course I was told that I couldn't. That's when I went to Allstate direct. Faxed them a letter and followed up. The reps at Allstate seemed to not really have a clue to what Lynx was or how it prices things and they approved it. Gotta follow up next week to make sure the claim is in process. I told Allstate I didn't want them to bother going through the 3rd party because it would probably only confuse the 3rd party further. I swear... I really wish we could do a national boycot of billing insurance companies as a whole in this business. Let it be up to the customers who pay us and just let them file the claim. Then the consumers who are paying for the so called protection from their insurance co's would find out the real culprits. That would really through the weight back on the Insurance Co.'s. Let them deal with losing customers due to non-payment of claims!

I have a question, not related to labor but relate to the sunroof, did you atleast make some money on the sunroof? and i guess I would say if they are going to jank you on these parts do not do them?

i would also charge for detailing the car, in addition to the installation labor. cleaning the car has always been part of the job, but in an instance of the sunroof, there is more than the usual hitting things with a vaccum. i would sure rather have the car detailed than have a shard of glass hit somebody in the eye.

Rick a response to you is we are a auto. glass repair and replacement and we also rent out U-Hauls and every windshield we change out has rust and corrosion on the pichweld. We don't bill the ins. co. because they don't pay for a good job. So we clean the pinchweld and install the glass properly and bill them what we need to. We always get our money. At first they thought we were expensive. We explained the safety issue and they don't have a problem with it. We take pictures of them all the time and use them to show our customers the difference between an install and a proper install. Sometimes they have us go 50 miles for installs and they pay really good. We charge them mileage and an hourly charge as soon as we leave the shop. These are about the only mobiles we do. We have a really good reputation also. We do all the law enforcement cars, ambulance service, firetrucks and quite a few fleets because of we do all installs "by the book" as they say.

The insurance companies will pay the body shops (Seen it happen at on of our accounts)they refused to pay us so we sent it to our body shop to get done (swap out R&R later if they cant get ins. to pay) they call the insurance co. and ten minutes later they have approval 238.00 why is it they will doe it for body shops but not us?

#2 If a insurance and or TPA refers a customer to a glass shop for a replacement and it results in rust when it comes to a later replacement then they should be held responsible for the damages done to that car. If we install it without fixing the problem than the w/s flies out and someone gets hurt they come after us for damages. so why not hold the ins. co. and the tpa's accountable for rust damage to a vehicle? Or if the customer can prove they filed a claim in the past than the ins. or tpa should have the previous installation company pay for it.
If its a standard and we are required to fix it than we should get paid for doing so. I dont understand why agrss dont stand up on this one because if the TPA and ins. cos. do this and have Agrss language in the O&A than they should have to pay us for following the standard weather we are a registered AGRSS shop or not .

AHAG, I agree with everything you said.


My best guess to the AGRSS question is, that at this point in time, they are unwilling to ruffle feathers of potential members by doing any postwork inspections. It's just a guess.

The trouble is, by allowing PPG to use AGRSS freely in Metryx, they have also allowed any shop to use it freely as well. Trademark or no Trademark, if it's public domain in the ANSI standard, and it's public domain to PPG, then it's public domain to the shops.

I believe that PPG and the Farm and Allstate should be paying AGRSS everytime they use AGRSS to refer a client. PPG should be VERY familiar with this concept; they pay handsomely for the use of the Good Housekeepping Seal in the Certified First Program. I feel that they should pay NGA for each referral based on NGA certification also. That's definitely NOT public domain.

But, that's just my opinion, and apparantly AGRSS, and NGA, obviously didn't see it that way.

I just think that they tossed away one of the best income and fund sources they had right out the window. (pardon the pun)

AGRSS consists of individuals from the industry who volunteer their time to serve as officers and on the various committees. These folks also work full time for a living and are not compensated for what they do. I encourage any of you who are interested in improving AGRSS to contact them and offer your services. I'm sure they would be glad to have you on board.

I don't understand why AGRSS keeps getting implicated in some plot to undermind the industry with Metryx. When a shop signs up for Metryx they can list association memberships, technician certifications, etc. If a shop signs up and states that they are registered with AGRSS, Metryx contacts AGRSS and simply asks AGRSS to verify if in fact they are registered. That's it. How is that "being used freely?"

Just stating what I know and trying to figure out where you guys are coming from with this. I know and work closely with a lot of these folks and I can assure you, they're one objective is to improve the entire AGR industry. Not bring down the independents.

And that's all I have to say about that.

Darn. They don't have a Forrest Gump smilie.

web master that is because 90% of the people that post here are morons.

I don't think that is the case at all. I would say that the reverse is true. A vast majority of the folks that post in this forum seem to be very intelligent, aside from the occasional grammatical misstep. I just find it disconcerting that so many misconceptions exist.

If that is truly the case,then why are you even here?

NuttyGlassGuy, You obviously haven't been utilizing this forum for long or you would realize that MOST of the people that post here actually do have a certain degree of intelligence and MOST of them are here because they have a genuine concern for their business and the industry as a whole, though I do admit that there is the occasional exception. They may not agree with you, or they may have different ideas, but if you think about it. Some amazing things have been accomplished by "thinking outside the box" Don't automatically assume that because someone's opinion differs from yours that they are wrong.

Webmaster.My reply did not mean you.You just beat me to the punch

It was a joke! wow somone woke up on the wrong side of the NAGS points today!

No worries. I figured that was what happened.

Brian, I imply no plot, no conspiracy. This is business.

AGRSS and NGA let a major revenue source slip through their fingers when they let PPG market AGRSS and NGA certification through the Metryx program for free. That's all I'm saying.

If, and I use that word VERY loosely, IF PPG was above board with programs and motives, and IF the fox was not guarding the henhouse in the ENTIRE network system, then you likely wouldn't have the conspiracy theories. But, that is beside my point.

AGRSS and NGA are not overflowing with funds. Your example of AGRSS being the result of tons of volunteer effort was completely accurate. I, in my own small way, was one of those volunteers. AGRSS is a monumental achievement, the vision of Carl Joliff, and a grand example of what this industry can do when it puts aside its differences toward a common goal.

The neccesity for the program to evolve now requires funds to do so. A major revenue source is now using the efforts of all of those tireless individuals for free, by using it to market its OWN program, called Metryx. I simply disagree with this happening.

REad up on PPG and Certified First, and tell me why their use of AGRSS and NGA Certification in the Metryx program is any different from their use of the Good Housekeepping Seal, which they pay for. PPG should PAY PER CLICK, so to speak, for use of both. (or any other training credentials programs that they use to 'sell' Metryx with, for that matter.) If PPG wasn't making money off of Metryx, my opinion would be different.

JMHO

Do you realise what you are saying? Why the HELL would NGA who only has 335 (aprox) registered techs in the country (25 which i employee) ??? And why would they not let them promote AGRSS? That is so stupid for lynx to promote a business... Do you dis-allow your customers to mention they use you? And how do you know that NGA AND AGRSS did not pay lynx to put it in there?? How do you know state farm in a dark smokey room was not slipped a nice ham from honey baked, you dont. If your so **** worried about it ASK AGRSS ASK NGA do not ask us.

bill the insured and let them give the bill to the agent. or have the customer sign no warranty.

I dont think agrss is to blame for anything ,I just feel that if Tpa's and insurance companies use agrss language in a O&A and tell us that we have to follow the standard than they should have to follow it also when it comes to paying for extra labor or services to make the car safe.

I understand what you're saying Mark1 but I think where the confusion comes in to play is that you see it as Metryx/Lynx as using these certifications to market themselves. The way I see it is the shops who are AGRSS registered and hold certifications are using these to market themselves within the Metryx program. I could see your point if Metryx had worked out an arrangement with AGRSS and the NGA to only have registered shops and certified techs in their program and these shops were automatically enrolled in the program but I'm pretty sure that signing up to be on Metryx is completely voluntary and that no certifications or affiliations are required. But shouldn't the shops that choose to sign up be allowed to tout their credentials? How is this Metryx using it as a marketing tool? If I was a shop owner and had registered with AGRSS and paid all the fees and heaven forbid, decided to sign up for Metryx (which I would never admit to on this forum ) I would certainly want to be allowed to promote that fact. Maybe I'm missing something but the way I interpret your point, shouldn't the Yellow Pages, etc., have to pay AGRSS is a shop promotes themselves as being AGRSS registered in their yellow page ad?

I completely respect your opinion but it worries me that you are portraying AGRSS as a fumbling dupe for the industry when all they are doing is trying to help promote AGRSS and the standard through another avenue. That is the only reason I am responding. Not trying to be confrontational or cause trouble. I don't think think a lot of you out there realize the hard work that these handful of volunteers do and the reason they do it is because they are passionate about the industry and want to try to improve it and get rid of the fly by night guys doing unsafe installs.

Don't forget to vote today everybody!

Time for coffee.

Nutty, I assume you're replying to me?

"Do you realise what you are saying?"

Yes, I do. I think PPG should "pay per click" so AGRSS and NGA can generate funds.

"Why the HELL would NGA who only has 335 (aprox) registered techs in the country (25 which i employee) ???"

Why would NGA......what? I don't understand that one. (and kudos for having 25 NGA certified techs)

"And why would they not let them promote AGRSS?"

I didn't say they shouldn't "let them". I said PPG should pay for the priveledge of using these credentials, to generate funds for AGRSS, and NGA also if they use that. The shop is supposed to benefit by the referrals, right?

"That is so stupid for lynx to promote a business..."

Ok, fine. (??) I was under the assumption Lynx was using this stuff to promote Metryx, and shops, right?

"Do you dis-allow your customers to mention they use you?"

No, but what has that to do with this?

"And how do you know that NGA AND AGRSS did not pay lynx to put it in there??"

I suppose I don't, but from what has been said publicly, money didn't move either way.

"How do you know state farm in a dark smokey room was not slipped a nice ham from honey baked, you dont."

You're right, I don't, and I stated right up front this wasn't about conspiracy theories, it was BUSINESS. What does the Farm have to do with this, other than being a 'buyer/user' of METRYX?

"If your so **** worried about it ASK AGRSS ASK NGA do not ask us."

First, I have asked them. Second, I didn't ask you anything.

Hope that helps explain my view.

Just goes to show you that,networks DO NOT,warranty or guarantee anything.So how can they possibly say anything about a non-networks shops warranty.

Vt. my thoughts exactly.It makes no **** since to me.

Just do what I do when the TPA tells the customer "the shop you have chosen is/is not on our preferred list" I tell them why we are or why we are not. PRICING.

I let every customer know that the MAIN condition for being on any ins. co. "list" is to agree to THEIR price. So, wether we are on the list or are not on the "list", the customer understands what it means in either case. I just long for the day when we are not on ANY "list" and I can stop watching policyholders get upset talking to TPA's for 5 to 10 minutes. NO MORE PHONE CALLS PLEASE!!!!

Brian,

I commended everyone involved with AGRSS, the many volunteers for their efforts. I would not portray them as 'fumbling dupes'.

I believe they let a funding opportunity slip through their fingers, that's all.

I just feel that PPG (or anyone else for that matter that does something similar), in any program that references credentials to further this program (such as Metryx), should pay for the priveledge to use the names of any credentialing source.

I mean, hey, whether they're selling Metryx to insurers, or now PPG AutoCare(Metryx) to consumers, I doubt they are doing it totally out of the goodness of their hearts, there has to be $ in it for them somewhere (good intentions don't pay the bills/stockholders). THe shop has paid for the credentials in one way or another(then they paid the Yellow Pages to advertise), so why shouldn't AGRSS make some money back from this in the form of some pay per click fees from PPG using it in their marketing of Metryx or PPG Autocare or whatever/whoever else?

I don't get the big whoopdedoo over this. All we're talking about is something like a nickle a click, or whatever, but @ 8 million potential per year....do the math. Nice extra cash for AGRSS.

How about this: if PPG does this PPG Autocare thing, and looks up a WS for a customer, do you suppose that NAGS will make PPG pay for the usage? Absolutely.

So will NAGS then charge the shop for using the number again, when PPG sends out the work order for the shop?
Absolutely.

Will the supplier that sends the glass pay NAGS again when they ship the part? Absolutely.

In fact, NAGS gets a cut "per user" with all the bookkeepping in all this usage of it's number TOO.

So what's wrong with AGRSS making a Nickle in this everytime it's credentials and logo are referenced? You're the IT guy, what's the going rate for "pay per click" on websites?

And again, how is this concept different from PPG paying Good Housekeepping for hte use of their name in PPG's programs? Further, if PPG want's to help out AGRSS...why not? How about 1, 2, or 3 cents per click?

I just don't quite understand how this went from "some $ for AGRSS (and NAGS and others) opportunity" to "fumbling dupes" and "conspiracy theories".

Mabey I should use more smileys?

Sorry about getting so defensive about this. I guess its the shell shock from previous posts over the years. I had a bit of a knee-jerk to the idea that Metryx/PPG was using AGRSS to market itself while AGRSS turned a blind eye. I still don't think that is the case and actually see it as being more beneficial for AGRSS. Hopefully this will help to make the public more aware of AGRSS and how big a role the windshield plays (which I think is ridiculous but that's a completely different conversation) in their safety in the event of a roll over accident. Before I came to work here I can honestly say that I had no clue about anything related to replacing a windshield and had I needed to have mine replaced, I would've just gone to wherever my insurance company told me. I believe this to be the case with the uninformed public as well. If someone in the industry wants to help promote AGRSS, they are going to be open to it.

I'm not quite sure how your revenue system would work in this case. Possibly a pay-per impression system since I don't think there is really any "clicking" through or interaction with the AGRSS website. What might be more beneficial is getting them to display banners for the safewindshields.com website whenever search results return AGRSS registered shops. Since AGRSS is classified "non-profit" there may be some regulations that prevent them from charging third parties in situations like this. I don't know. However, for what its worth, I do know that PPG is a regular contributor to AGRSS and have been for a while.

I just want everyone to know that AGRSS' only objective is to get the word out to automobile owners that it is important to make sure that if you have the need to replace your windshield, that you have it done correctly and that its not a situation where you can sit in a lobby for 20 minutes, have a cup of coffee and read a magazine and then drive away. I encourage any of you that have websites to please right click and save the safewindshields.com banner above and place it prominently on your website and link it to safewindshields.com. That is one way you can get involved and help AGRSS spread the word.

Again Mark1, my apologies for getting so bent. I just know how a lot of you feel about Metryx and I was afraid that misconceptions would arise in regards to shops in the Metryx system promoting their AGRSS credentials.

Happy Wednesday everybody. If you never watched the show Ghost Hunters on SciFi Wednesdays nights at 9:00pm EST, I highly recommend it. Its not always super spooky but its pretty cool.