This is something on the SGC's website listed under their "General Facts" screen:
Q: What is my price going to be?
A: The SGC Network does not determine pricing. The insurance or fleet company determines pricing. The price will be communicated to you via a letter faxed to you before the program starts. The price will also be included on each work order faxed to you after the program begins.
Q: Will the price for all insurance or fleet companies be the same?
A: No. Each insurance or fleet company will establish prices based on their own criteria. The prices will be communicated to the SGC Network member shops via a letter faxed from the SGC Network. Also, each work order faxed from the SGC Network will include pricing and billing information.

My question is... Do you think we can or should be able to request a copy of the prices that the insurance companies are giving to SGC? I just wonder if this is a possibility just to prove we aren't being uhh LIED TO . This may be usefull in the legallity of the steering or price control issues we are all facing.

I've posted this info before but I feel like your question warrants repeating it since it has certain "implications" (my info not your question) IMHO. We were doing 95% of all of the work for an insurance co. with a strong presence in AL, FL, and MS. October of 05 they signed on with SGC right up untill the day they went on the network they were requesting -15% off NAGS for glassparts, the very day they began dispatching through the network suddenly we were notified by SGC that the dicount was to be -25% off. Is it just coincedence? Not making any accusations,just wondering........what do you think? Here's the part that puzzles me whenever we do a job for the ins co now and it is paid through the adjusters office and not run through network, we bill at -15% and that's what they pay. Almost as though as far as they know their rate is still -15%.

I agree. There has never been doubt in my mind that SGC approaches the insurance co's with, say a guaranteed discount of 15%, then in turn tell the shops that the discount is 30%. How else would they make their money. I would love to be able to really know exactly what the discounts are offered to the insurance co's. Anyone good friends with an agent that could check what SGC offers them? In turn we could see if the offer is the same for us. Maybe we could have a legality issue here since they say in writing "The insurance co's set the price."

Iam good friends with my father in laws agent but all he will tell me is safelites rates are cheaper than mine .I have even had the guy out fishing and hunting on our 3,800 acre ranch south of dallas and he still says " I hope you dont expect any work out of me " I always tell him you couldnt pay me do do work for you" Truth is i would love to have his work .he has a safelite van in his parking lot every day of the week with at least 2-3 jobs a day .they even put in a car port so they have cover in the rain.I had offered him -28 off nags at one point just to get my foot in the door and he laughed.

You need better friends! Does your Father-in-law work for Safelite.

I would think pay a safelite employee fitty bux to just scan copies of say 10 different invoices to establish pricing and prove theyre billing at a better discount than we are.

There has to be some disgruntled Safelite employee out there that will take us up on that ...

Shoe me some #'s

Safelite holds all of the cards and no one will ever know for sure what they do.

We all need to learn to live with this situation and work on what we can control.

I'm sorry, Intoglass, I cannot agree with your statement. It is painfully obvious that no one in this industry can live with things the way they are, despite years, in fact now decades, of trying. We continue to slip deeper and deeper by trying live with things the way they are.

It's not 'working on things we can control', it's 'TAKING BACK CONTROL' of our industry that's the key. This is not the insurance industry, it's the autoglass industry. The sooner we realize that, and that insurers could care less about our industry, past milking it dry, the better we will all be.

Ironically, I think soon, many of us trying do just that will be the ones left to pick up the pieces of what's left of this industry after all the ones that have been 'going along to get along until something better comes along' ultimately run this industry into ruin.

JMHO

Mark1, I totally agree with you. Unfortunately, there are so few people who are willing to "take back control" of the situation, and the ins. industry is only too aware of this. Bottom line, I think there are SO MANY people out there that are just plain afraid to take the initiative on their own. So many of the independants out there are not doing much more than hanging on as it as and feel they can't afford to take that chance. There is the old "safety in numbers" aspect, but obviously no one has quite figured out how to make that happen.

OMG- The agent used to work for my father in laws oil company than decided to start a insurance company because they did not have one here in town in the mid 80's. My father in law still keeps his eye on the oil company but mainly just hangs out fishing, golfing,hunting and every once in a while he might make a few sales calls for us with some of his friends .Thanks to him we now have 3 large oil company fleets that we service in the dallas area and in oklahoma city.

I was told by a cheeplite manager that he did not know the billed prices, he did not see them at the the store.

They know their pricing. I have seen their work orders.

I don't believe the people at the store level at SGC would have access to this information. Nor do I think we should try and get it in a fashion that is sneaky. It should be our right to see this information. If SGC is getting this information and then passing it on to the glass shops at a different rate than what the insurance company is giving them, that in itself should be illegal. They should have to show us proof of what the insurance company is "determining" for pricing.

I repeat, they do, but I'm not going to argue the point.

This is completely OPNION not fact, and JMHO, and no one else's. If I bill an insurance co @-25% through #@$, I believe the insurance company is billed @-15% and that is what #@$ receives, then they pay us @-25%, because they can......I know, I know, GET OFF THE NETWORK. Easier said than done, we're hardly getting any insurance work anymore anyway, compared to 28 months ago when I started here. I can only imagine the trickle that would become if we jumped the NETWORK ship so to speak. Already there are some jobs that when the insured calls, I find out who their agent is and tell them the insured has requested us (get a firm commitment from insured before trying this), and we are willing to do the work, but not through the network. Usually the agent will balk a bit, but they always end up saying OK, and we make a fair and reasonable profit. I only do this when I know the part is going to cost about the same as the discounted price at invoice. It's easier than getting approval through the network for NET part, and alot better than the 10-16% over (documented) cost your offered on average from network on NET parts.

I don't have a contract to look at. Does anyone else? I was wondering if it says anywhere in there contract about the insurance company telling them what the discount is to be and they (SGC) will inform the glass shop as to the pricing?

i have had agents look up what the network was paid in the past, it is alot higher than what we are paid, even on pits.

my question, as i understand it, networks are paid per ticket prices to process claims,,,so in addition to what they are paid per ticket they are also submitting bogus bills to the insurance. don't seem like they should be able to alter what the insurance is charged by us.

Safelite and other T.P.A.'s are a valuable to insurers. They demonstrated that the insurer's staff was overpaying glass claims. Many insurers were guilty of just paying bills, rather than looking closely at what they were paying.

T.P.A.'s serve as consultants for the insurance companies, making suggestions to help the insurer meet their individual company's goals. The T.P.A. does not set the prices--the insurer does this, and the t.p.a. merely implements the pricing.

Most of the local shops are not aware of the pricing. This isn't because it is a 'secret' but rather they don't have a mechanism to accurately monitor pricing at the store level.

I suspect some insurers take a more active role in program management than others. Less active
management may result in many insurers programs resembling each other.

IMHO it seems that the challenge for the Indep. Glass Shops is to find a mutually equitable method to work within the current system.

i'm sorry hal, i have a hard time with some of that.

i don't mind and would encourage the insurance companies to watch the pricing, but what has happened has gone far beyond that. Mutually Equitable seems to be a theory, a far cry from the real world. In addition to that, the insurance companies job is to indemnify the insured against losses, not to set the prices or negotiate pricing, unless by doing so you are willing to accept the liability resulting from the cut corners to meet those pricing requirements.

i have heard radio ads for auto owners, but i can't remember ever doing work for them, so this is not geared directly at you, i am thankful that you come here, and once in a while i can even almost see your point. I am just trying to survive, and i doubt the entire glass industry makes anywhere near the record profits being reported for your industry, not that either of us could do anything about that. Mutually Equitable, as i interpret it would be a fair price for you and for me,, ya that is a theoretical term.

Still trying....

Hal, Safelite showed the insurance industry they were overpaying glass claims....based on "WHAT", exactly?

IF this was true, what did you do to report these overbillings as fraud?

What regulatory agency do you work for that allows you to set a price in a market not your own?

Where is the contract of repair between you and the shop allowing you to set prices, and in exchange for, "WHAT", exactly?

Insurance consultants are required to be licensed separately in many states. Some have specific requirements that they be licensed.

What, if you can answer all of the above, did you use to set your version of the price? State laws require that you disclose the method/formula used to settle the claim.

That's enough, I'm repeating myself.

Yes Hal,
There are several dozen ears anxiously awaiting your reply.

Good questions---Please remember I merely wished to give you the spin from the 'other side'. There is no insidious plot to put anyone out of business but to rather pay a competitive price for goods and services. This applies to glass, body shop repairs, home repairs, etc. We try to effectively manage claim payments.

Mark1-in the old days, many glass claims were simply paid without much thought. They were small claims and were not given proper respect or attention by many claim handlers. I am not sure this rose to fraud, but rather poor business practices. The t.p.a.'s have shown us where we were overpaying, and have helped us manage our claims more effectively.

Q-What regulatory agency do you work for that allows you to set a price in a market not your own?
A-None. Our costs are passed thru to the consumers. We see thousands of claims and are able to recognize fair pricing. We share that information with our customers with whom we have a contract!

Q-Insurance consultants are required to be licensed separately in many states. Some have specific requirements that they be licensed.
A-Our Adjusters and Agents are licensed in all states where it is required.

Q-What, if you can answer all of the above, did you use to set your version of the price? State laws require that you disclose the method/formula used to settle the claim.
A-I am not sure I understand your question here, but I don't think an insurer has a specific duty to you [as a glass shop] to disclose settlement information. Perhaps you are asking about glass our pricing methodology?

Hal I don't think I understand the idea of fair price recognition. It seems that without knowing the cost of material & labor - the cost of doing business - establishing a fair price would be impossible. While insurance companies should not be cheated, I don't feel the glass shop should either. It just doesn't make sense that someone outside of the industry is able to make a sound decision where pricing is concerned. I'm sorry. I just don't get it.

Excuse me Hal, with all due respect it sounds almost as though you are saying that "because some insurers failed to properly audit or pay attention to claims being paid for all these years, and some were from "bad apple" companies who inflated prices, they decided that just because they could they would just find a way to keep the money in their coffers and screw independent Ag and AB shops out of their due profits, even if they were or are not guilty of this past practice they must now help insurance companies recoup". Now in actuality I know you are not, but that is what has happened with the networks. You may think you (general use of word) are setting fair prices, but how is that possible when we are already struggling and then we get a little fax or email informing us that we will now be receiving 10% less for the same work? When our cost have gone up 7.5% this year on glass alone, and NAGS erodes benchmark prices 4x's per year. Do you think any of our operating cost have gone down, I assure you they have not. While insurance companies are reporting record high profits, insured's premiums are going up, and you are forcing us to provide them with lesser quality parts and service for their premium dollar. Insurance companies are OUT OF CONTROL, and we are tired of taking it up the A--! Explain how when I submit an invoice through the network I'm required to give said insurance company 25% off, but when I submit to same said insurance company through their adjuster's office I'm paid at 15% off, do they not know their own rates, or do they not know that the TPA they've hired is screwing the shops on the network out of 10%, or do you (general term again) just not give a @#$! ????

I usually don't pick on Hal but this kinda got to me, no offense Hal. You said:
Q-What regulatory agency do you work for that allows you to set a price in a market not your own?
A-None. Our costs are passed thru to the consumers. We see thousands of claims and are able to recognize fair pricing. We share that information with our customers with whom we have a contract!

Is this why our rates are so high? Insurance companies, in turn, are inflating the claims amount they pay out and are passing it on to the insured? Wouldn't this be a bit fraudulent?

Hal, I supposed you meant "Perhaps you are asking about our glass pricing methodology" (Instead of "Asking about glass our pricing methodology") Of course, that is what Mark1 was asking and I don't understand how you can't understand his question. All of us in this glass replacement business would like to know just how insurance companies come to their theory of so called fair and reasonable pricing and we are getting answers from no-one. Not Nags/Mitchell/Insurance Co.s nor TPA's can tell us the answer to this question. All we see is that we are obviously not using the same method or we would be more on the same page and you wouldn't hear us gripe so much! Do you know our costs? If you claim you do, we would like to know how you know our costs, or is it just based on the low ball price that SGC gives you since they make their own glass and can sell it to you for less than anyone else can.(which by the way, if you were an installer instead of an insurance dude, you would be hestitant to use it since it rarely fits properly)

HAL stated "The T.P.A. does not set the prices--the insurer does this, and the t.p.a. merely implements the pricing." Come on HAL we all know better, and I am sure technically you do set the price (or maybe we should just say sign-off on the price) but, I have just a few questions for you based on that statement.

If you, the insurance company glass claim manager, set the prices, how is it that over 40 ins. companies that currently use SGC as their TPA, have the exact same LABOR pricing structure and KIT pricing that you have?

If each of those 40 ins. co. independently set their own prices, how did you all come up with the exact same labor and kit prices, if you all set you OWN prices?

Surely, you did not all have the same vision from God to inspire you to those SAME prices? Surely, you did not all have a "secret" meeting to come up with those SAME prices, that would be price fixing.

So WHERE EXACTLY DID YOU GET YOUR PRICING? And further, how did 40 SEPERATE glass claims managers all come up with the EXACT SAME PRICES while operating independently and without a meeting to engage in "price fixing"?

If neither of these two events happened, then please HAL, explain what products, services, and companies DID YOU USE for a comparative in order to establish your prices? So if YOU and your fellow managers are not "price fixing" by coming up with those prices, which once again I remind you, are EXACTLY the same for 40 insurance companies, then just exactly WHO came up with the prices? If not GOD, if not SGC, and if not all 40 of you in a meeting, then just who?

I think we all know HAL. SAFELITE gave you those prices. SAFELITE "consulted" with you and RECOMMENDED the pricing. That or, you and all your fellow glass claims managers did have meetings and "price fixed" the labor and kits.

I am sure your team of lawyers pour over these issues making sure CYA is in place, but the time will come HAL. We, the auto glass industry WILL NOT sit here and let the TPA's and insurance companies be our masters forever.

As always HAL, I do appreciate your participation and comments on this board. Good luck in life, and Happy

CCC, very good points. I was going to attempt the same type of questions, but I fear I just got angry. So to you sir.....well said, here's hoping you get a reply from Hal or anyone on the "Dark Side". I too appreciate his input, and willingness to at least listen, even if he can't understand our point or do anything about it, shows guts. Thanks Hal, and sorry for being such a witch, but is after all HALLOWEEN.

Webmaster-My last post on this was removed. Did I say something we are not allowed to say? So sorry if I did.

Try clicking the next button.

Thank you, Hal, for your replies. Allow me to clarify for you.


"Mark1-in the old days, many glass claims were simply paid without much thought. They were small claims and were not given proper respect or attention by many claim handlers. I am not sure this rose to fraud, but rather poor business practices. The t.p.a.'s have shown us where we were overpaying, and have helped us manage our claims more effectively."

I'm glad you are more effective, but I would ask if more effective is strictly based on the price? If so, I have a surprise for you, and a lot of documentation to back it up. But you must first define "more effective".




"Q-What regulatory agency do you work for that allows you to set a price in a market not your own?
A-None. Our costs are passed thru to the consumers. We see thousands of claims and are able to recognize fair pricing. We share that information with our customers with whom we have a contract!"

I should just allow your answer "NONE" to be sufficient, but I will elaborate.
First, no insurer to date is sharing this information with policyholders, despite repeated efforts by policyholders to garner such info. I have referred to the colonel's secret recipe before, and I will again. Second, if you have no value in your formula for quality of materials, and installers, as case law has shown, your formula for settling claims "more effectively" is biased and flawed, in your favor, because it is not reflective of the open market, only what market you and some companies have seemingly created. And the case law backs that statement up as well. There's also more to this in a coming reply below.





"Q-Insurance consultants are required to be licensed separately in many states. Some have specific requirements that they be licensed.
A-Our Adjusters and Agents are licensed in all states where it is required."

I did not say adjusters and agents, I said CONSULTANTS. Different bird alltogether. You said consultants, I said consultants also. Let's stay on that.





"Q-What, if you can answer all of the above, did you use to set your version of the price? State laws require that you disclose the method/formula used to settle the claim.
A-I am not sure I understand your question here, but I don't think an insurer has a specific duty to you [as a glass shop] to disclose settlement information. Perhaps you are asking about glass our pricing methodology?"


First, see my reply above, but allow me to agree with you that you have no duty to tell shops anything. Nor do you have a duty to pay shops anything, because you have not contracted for repairs with shops. YOU DO have a duty to your policyholders to disclose the methods used to settle their claim and how you calculate that amount. Of course this likely varies by state, but the point is, you cannot arbitrarily come up with a number and say "that's it".

Now to your pricing allowances, again, read above. But in that you have not chosen to REPAIR the property, but rather to PAY MONIES for the repairs, you have no stand in dictating price, so your only other recourse is to get invoices from the open market to justify your settlement allowances.

That's the catch, you want to have your cake, and eat it too, you are not contracting for repairs, but you want to dictate price as if you were. You assume no liability for the repairs, but set the parameters of price that the repairer is allowed to work with.

You further admit that your costs are pass through to your customers, but deny that this basic business premise should be allowed to our industry, by dictating ever dropping discounts while our costs are ever rising.

If your industry wasn't showing such massive profits, or was in fact, showing losses, things might be different, and claims of how consumers are benefiting would be true. But consumer's insurance costs are going through the roof, and/or benefits for those costs are dwindling. Where is the benefit to the consumer, exactly? (Let's stay focused on the consumer benefits here, not the shareholders or stockholders benefit, OK?)

Finally, invoices from the open market, free of manipulation by "referrals" which you admit garners a different price, invoices that reflect the different levels of quality, materials, and service, ARE PROOF OF LOSS, no matter what your "consultants" opinion is, which is based on an Aftermarket parts database, an Aftermarket parts manufacturer (or 10), an Aftermarket parts installer (or many), and finally one that has filed bankruptcy!

Mister Chairman, I relinquish the soapbox to the next distinguished speaker....

GlassWoman-
I didn't mean to highjack your post. I think you do have the right to know what an insurer pays. I would think they would gladly share this with you.

We are not trying to screw or cheat anyone. Insurers wish to pay a fair price. Trouble is, this can be hard to define. Most shops are quite competitive in their markets--a few are not.

We are both running a business and we both must be efficient to survive. We must both have a competitively priced product or it won't sell. It is not reasonable to expect either an insurer or the public to willingly fund an inefficient shop.

hal,

definitions are words used by lawyers and politicians to bend right and wrong. i do not like using junk glass, some of it dont fit the body right, but pricing issues force us to do stuff we don't want to do. efficiency forces us to bend to other people's will.

"It is not reasonable to expect either an insurer or the public to willingly fund an inefficient shop."


And "you" and your "consultant" have decided what the definition of "inefficient shop" is?

Hal, you simply astound me sometimes.

I suppose the counter to this is, it must be OK to expect the public to fund "efficient" insurers that are going to clear an estimated $70 Billion this year, possibly doubling the record profit of the year before, which followed a record profit year in 2004.
And remember, these numbers are strictly Prop and Cas.

It is ironic indeed that insurers want state and federal backstops funded by consumers to save insurers in natural disasters. Ironic indeed, in that the profits rolling in will account for Katrina and Rita in as little as two years.

Glass shops everywhere should be thankful we have TPA consultants saving us from ourselves and forcing us to deal with our inefficient businesses.

UNBELIEVABLE! Now we have others who are trying to determine how effiecently we run our businesses! Hal sometimes you estound me! I would bet most of these ind. shops are run more effiecently than the multi billion $$$$$ ins co's,,, and certainly better than SGC!!!! HA HA HA what a joke. Halloween was last nite Hal,,, not APRIL FOOLS DAY!

Webmaster-- I didn't even think of that!! Too funny. Didn't think this post would get so big!


No reason to apologize to me Hal. I am glad you are speaking up on this issue!
I do know what the insured pays for his claim. That would be his deductible! I also know that some insurance companies raise their rates for filing a claim. Some will even get a lovely "black mark" on their policy for just having a claim for a rock chip repair.
It gets me that the insurance industry as a whole has been raising rates to the consumer, paying less for to the companies repairing the vehicles (glass/body), and still making record profits. How is this helping anyone BUT the insurance industry?

Now, back to the original question of this post...

Shouldn't the "claims rates" allowed by YOUR INDUSTRY be given DIRECTLY to the REPAIR FACILITIES as well as YOUR TPA's? This will provide proof to everyone that YOUR INDUSTRY and the REPAIR FACILITIES are not getting uhm SCREWED by the TPA's.

, First Mark1 thanks for being the educated voice of reason, now here comes the other side. OH MY GOD! Don't you realize it's the discounts that your industry is pushing on us, that is responsible for the state of ineffiency found in many shops. They've had no choice or say in what they are paid for their produts or labor, when they are the only ones who have the required information to set the prices for their products and labor. Now you have shops that are having to lay off qualified installers, and purchase poor quality products because that is all your(general sense of the word) pricing allows for. How hard is this to understand. Insurance companies are directly responsible for the high number of insureds who are driving around with UNSAFE windshields in their vehicles, and they don't even have a clue. I don't know what the rates are for your company, but we are up to about 6 companies we will not work for, because we refuse to be party to the death or injury sustained by the insureds of these companies due to the quality of installation and the products used. BECAUSE that is the only way any company can be installing parts at these prices, unless they are operating in the red with bankruptcy in the near future.

Go Louise - the real problem HAL has is he is using a DIRECT COMPETITOR of all of ours as a "consultant" to help determine what the company he works for should pay for a product and/or service. He is comparing apples to oranges while thinking he is comparing apples to apples. This is why states like Minnesota have laws protecting "like products, quality, and service" and others that hold an ins. co. to a burden of proof such as "a majority of service providers charge for goods, services, or training."

He is using a LIST price (NAGS) that no longer reflects the auto glass market as our suppliers/glass manufacturers/ and auto delears publish their own prices currently.

And lastly, (sorry for using you as an example again Mr. Hare), HAL is sadly misunderstanding that because most shops are on his "approved list"(which is a TOTAL joke because the MAIN requirement is to agree to HAL's pricing), it means they are happy with his pricing. Never realizing most shops are ONLY on his list out of fear that their business' will close doors in a matter of weeks when they drop off the "approved list" and SGC then "steers", I prefer STEALS, those customers while creating doubt in the mind of the consumer with terms like "might have to pay out of pocket" or "we cannot guarantee their work", etc.

HAL, I know you have a job to do, and as always you know I both respect and understand your answers, knowing many times you cannot or will not say things you want or wish you could say to all of us.

Like Mr. Bischoff, your job is to keep claim $ as low as possible to please your bosses, make your bonuses, while not ******* off policyholders enough they get organized and sue your company. It is a difficult and sometimes frustrating job I am sure.

Consumers are FED UP with insurance companies, and sadly so are many service providers these days. The day for reform will come. And insurers will not be able to hide behind politicians forever, or "consult" with them in order to make new laws to change the rules of the game.

BTW - I am not sure you replied to my questions of "price fixing" as yet. I am sure you will when you have some spare time.

Pretty tough to believe that ins co sets pricing when I see every SGC insurer with the same price structure for labor ($XX flat + $XX/hr) but every other ins co we bill either directly or through the other networks pays a flat labor fee or a flat per hr rate AND when the cost for HMNC thane is the same for every SGC ins co. Used to be a couple years ago they were all 65/95/125, now they are all what??? 30/40/50 orsomething like that? I don't know about you all but my cost for urethane hasn't gone down. If SGC isn't setting the prices, explain the collusion to me!

The term "Fair and reasonable" should be applied to a "Known" study of market conditions and what it takes to compete in a market .

Not what some insurer coupled to its TPA can get on a deal with the WORST Possible product installed by twenty something non career oriented individuals who will eventually go into some other career as glass is NOT going to be worth anything to anyone in 5-10 more years thanks to Nags and the lack of a real study as to whats actually fair and reasonable.

The thing that irks me the most about the TPA's and pricing etc is that we Can not compete for the jobs by direct advertising , as once the insureds call the CIA trained telemarketers at one of the fantastic parasitic networks we lose the job anyhow due to fear, coersion, or flat out lies 75% of the time show me where thats fair ?

You cant allow some bunch of buttheads to determine what works for an industry and control pricing.

If you all were paying 55% of the old nags in 2000 then thats fair and reasonable you said it yourself . anything ess than that would not be fair and reasonable.

This is a quote from Hal on this thread, Nov 1st.
"GlassWoman-
I didn't mean to highjack your post. I think you do have the right to know what an insurer pays. I would think they would gladly share this with you.
Email: hal.hare@stateauto.com

How about glass shops from different regions posting exactly what discount they are required to give State Auto through the SGC Network. Hal, you in turn could check with Safelite and see if it it the same. Hal, I'm sure you will find that what you think we are getting is just not so. You probably think we are getting say, 15% of NAGS, when in reality it could be as high as 30% off. Please check for us. If the networks are pocketing the difference, you may find it advantageous to get off the network yourself and see if shops would go for perhaps a 17% off NAGS without SGC in the picture. That would be 2% more for you and 13% more for us (which we dearly deserve!) Hal, since you did say "I would think they would gladly share this with you", I really hope you will. Most of us do want to work with the Insurance Industry, just not the networks!