When nags did their infamous rebalancing 2/28/05, they said it was"revenue neutral" but when we looked at a typical mix,we found that the lesser-used parts went up in value and the more commonly used parts went down-which of course favors the ins ind. Pilk & ppg both just raised prices 3.5% across the board(whats the odds?), but the increases are not reflected by NAGS in their latest calculator- which,of course,favors the ins ind. Nags knows very well that all payments are pegged to their benchmark prices, so when NAGS declines to reflect price increases, Nags is raising prices to the auto glass shops, but not to the carriers. ISN'T THIS JUST A HOOT? one of the fundamental conventions of commerce is that the more expensive a part is to make, the more it costs to buy at the wholesale level, and the more it is sold at the retail level. Makes sense, but not in auto glass. In our industry you buy based on manufacturer's cost and get paid based on what can generously be described as a number pulled out of thin air! example,look at a popular mini van back glass,, 07 town&country DB10629GT-cost=157.59 nags list 372.1(without heat)
DB10630GT--cost=179.18 nags list 353.7 (with heat)
DB10631YP-cost=268.78 nags list 340.05 (heat& pvcy)
As you can see, your cost goes up as the part is more expensive to make, but when you get paid, the benchmark goes down! If you install this for lets say Met life( who won't negotiate), in an A market, PPG/LYNX will pay you $244.8- less than what you paid them for the glass!!ISN'T THAT A HOOT? or who's that working for ya? Nags likes to use the term "TRADING PARTNERS", When someone sells you glass and contracts with an insurer to pay you less for the job than your cost, "PARTNER" ISN'T THE WORD WE WOULD LIKE TO USE! Someday, somewhere, someone is going to sue a network or better yet a carrier and , through discovery, get to the magical formula by which they decide price. that formula, or lack there of, brought out into daylight for the world, and the courts, to see is the piece that brings down the house!
Now some of you may have already read this, but this is for those who haven't. NOW do you think this is a HOOT?? do you give a hoot? let's hear ya!!!

It sounds more like poop!

I'm in! Lets bring em' Down. Seriously, all were asking for is a fair price. I imagine they have to pay that Geko alot for thoes commercials.
I wonder if they have a forum that they bi!@H about glass companys on.

anybody remember head of the CLASS?
or where the ACTION is?

How many bites can they take?

We need a Union. The only way we could get there attention is move together twards a goal together.
And that won't work because there will always be a competitor willing to take the money and run, and that's how we're treated. If one company says no they have a whole list to call next.

I just don't see why something can't be done to NAGS for misleading their customers with the REVENUE NEUTRAL balony. It would be nice to have them investigated or even audited. It just seems what they have done with their pricing is plain illegal somehow. YA KNOW.

I agree, Nags has done some real shady things here, but,I don't think we can blame nags completely, for revenue neutral.I think it was up to us the shops, to make it revenue neutral by using a reasonable MARK-UP of our goods and labor is the biggest key to staying or getting paid better for our services. Nags is a broken tool because it is not used completely.Nags list for a 2.0 kit is $56.00. That should be exactly the going rate for a 2x kit, including primers! Clips should be billable. nags even has part #'s for decal removal & repair(SDC 00200), rust workor removal(SRW 00700), Mobile Service(SMB 00500), Hazard waste removal(SHW 00400), R&I of visors & ant(SRI 00500, Frieght(SFR00300, Butle to urethane conversion(SBU01300, Storage(SST01100)These things should be billable, and are, but not enough are willing to fight for it. Nags rebalance was to do away with discounting.I think the burden lies on US the shops to quit with the contracts and bill what is fair, and fight for it. Those who are ,,,, are WINNING!

So if we cancell our contracts with the networks and bill direct, and the insurance then forwards it on to their network, and the network short pays us, WHO is controlling the pricing here?
Or what if it doesn't even get to the network. Say the insurance company just returns the invoice and refuses to pay for it. Then what? Loose a customer for ever and agent referrals.
Wouldn't this be considered steering if the insurance company forces the glass invoices to be processed thru their TPA?
Most of us truly don't have an option of surviving in this industry if we chose not to bill thru a TPA. The agents would stop referring work to us not because of our top quality work, but because of our billing procedures not matching their requirements.
It's just a visceous circle.......

THe solution is simple, stop using NAGS pricing.

Bud and Jessee have stood in front of audiences at national glass conventions and stated if the product wasn't good, no one would use it.

The majority of wholesalers did not switch to NAGS benchmark pricing.

Why, if the wholesale side won't use it, should you?

As has been posted many times before, just say no.

It's really not that hard. Most of you are doing it anyway, or you wouldn't be noticing all those incorrect pricing issues. Markup from your cost and bill the materials out.

And yes, it's that simple.

(now, here come all the 'intherealworlditwontworkthatwayposts')

OK so what is considered a legal fair and reasonable mark up on glass parts? When we purchased parts from a dealer and can only get 15-25% above our cost plus labor. I don't get how shops can not bill insurance companies without using NAGS as they base their payments off of NAGS.
Mark I value your opinions and agree with you on almost everything. No-one in my area, that I know of, can bill an insurance company without using NAGS nor be able to bill Direct.

nags hours are suspicious too. dw1504 econoline van is 2.1, but dw1505 fseries super duty is 3.1 although installations are very similar and take me about same amount of time. also, how can the hours for a gbn part and a gby part for same car be the same when you have to apply the molding?

What is the status of the Chicago Group? Last I heard they were supposed to have something out in Sept, still waiting. The more shops that go to their site and register that they support the model will enable us all to obtain a better price. More shops need to register.

What's the Chicago Group's web site or will it pull up if you google it? I'm not the greatest with computers. And Mark1 I hear ya and we have hammered on this before, but for me, not using nags is like doing auto glass with no glass, it does not compute. Although you did say nags PRICING. Although maybe for you it is easy to price stickly from cost plus, we all still get stuck by the ins co's especially when they use lynx and sgc to pay us, because if you do your own pricing you are still left with the fight of short pays, late pays, and being paid by a competitor. But I do believe things will only improve when enough shops fight for our own pricing, not anyone else's. I still believe if we have to use any part of nags we should use it ALL. Go by the full list of EVERYTHING, no discounting, and then add proper labor for your area. It should be that simple!

Referencing: GlassWoman, I'd spend way too much time on the phone with insureds trying to convince them that, YES you can still use our shop even though we are not on insurance companies "preferred provider" network. I mean think about it, your health insurance won't reimburse out of network doctors at the same rate as preferred providers. I wonder if the doctors not participating in networks backbill the patient, or do they go after the insurance company for the short pay. We all know the answer, they go after the patient. Which is what the insureds are going to be told when requesting shops that don't participate in glass programs, you will have out of pocket expense. We couldn't afford the loss of the jobs in addition to the short pays, and the administrative time required to keep up with it all. It's just f - - - ing ridiculous! THE WHOLE SYSTEM IS BROKE AND NEEDS FIXED! I can't believe more state insurance commissioners aren't involved in this stinking mess, I wrote to ours after rebalancing lead to steeper discounts, also included PROOF of steering. I never even got a response. I think the greedy insurance industry is in bed with NAGS, and the blame can be dropped on insurance industries doorstep only, it was probably a former insurance industry whitecollar P---K that started the first network.

Hawk,
You go girl!! You are on a roll today. Can't think of a thing to add to what you just said!! I would love the website for Chicago Group also. I really want to check that out!!

You know, if we could get enough people together on this, we might actually be able to do something. You know the old saying, United We Stand, Divided We Fall.

Glass Lady, Yes we could, but we won't will we. The independent auto glass shop is here to stay. It may get worse before it gets better, but I remain positive that something will change, and it will be in our favor. I think a Democratic Administration would be a good place to start. Does anyone really think republicans care about small business, except that they stay out of the way of big business and fold quitely. Same thing goes for middle class Americans anyone who thinks we're being cared about is probably just happy gays aren't being allowed to marry. When did those type things become the barometer for who and how an administration takes care of the nations businesses and it's people? Get out and vote this year folks, and definitely in 08.

http://chicagoautoglassgroup.com/

Hawk, I don't want to get into a political discussion here, but the ideal of a Democratic Administration scares the hell out of me!

Thank you Glass Woman!!

You know why it scares you, they planned it that way. Scare tactics won the last election, and they are trying it again. Yes all the Democrats want the terrorists to come on in, blow us all up. They want to legalize partial birth abortions, they all want to let gays marry, that's all republican propaganda BS. But you're right let's not get into politics, wrong place and time, and I have way too much respect for you Glass Lady, to ever argue with you.

It sounds like we are both pretty strong minded, opionated women, so, I agree, let's not go there. By the way, the feelings mutual!!!

Why havn't we taken responsiblity for or own industry and issue and passed on the increase to ALL our customers?

They are making huge profits do you really think they will find it in there hearts to offer use an increase? No way PPG will increase the product and suppress you on billing it.

IGA put out this bulletin, but they neglected to say what they or we should do about it. We can b*tch and moan all day, but I think it's time something is done!

Does anybody out there know if there is someone representing the independent shops at any of the supposed meetings between NAGS & the insurance company reps.? (and probably D/T Safelite Belron)??

If we organize regional AG independent shop groups and then all meet as one big group; is that collusion? And if it is, does that mean we have NO recourse?

And does anybody out there know why the medical field goes after the insured for payment when the ins. companies deny a portion; but we can't?

I'm really really getting frustrated with all the "you can't do thats".... There has to be something we can do to protect our livelihoods....

Maybe we should ask Mark1.

Well I know the medical field can go after the insured as they normally put it in writing, even before they look at you. You usually have to agree, before they go forward. That's a big diffence between the two. Maybe that's something we need to do.

I would answer these as follows:


Does anybody out there know if there is someone representing the independent shops at any of the supposed meetings between NAGS & the insurance company reps.? (and probably D/T Safelite Belron)??

Bud and Jessee claimed they have input from glass businesses when discussing how they arrive at the NAGS prices. They would not reveal whom. Meetings between NAGS and it's customers would likely be proprietary (private). I recall that NAGS said that several insurers were on an 'advisory board' to NAGS in the past.



If we organize regional AG independent shop groups and then all meet as one big group; is that collusion? And if it is, does that mean we have NO recourse?

No, meeting is not collusion. Setting prices, dividing territories, boycotting; these are what would be considered illegal.



And does anybody out there know why the medical field goes after the insured for payment when the ins. companies deny a portion; but we can't?

Some would answer that it's because they are smarter than we are. Oh, and you can, BTW. The real question, based on your questions, is why should you have to?



There's my short-version-non-legal-opinion answers, mostly based on memory. HTH

hmmm let's see, tpa's and ins co's do set pricing,,,, tpa's and ins co'c do divide territories,,,( A market, B market, C market ect.) hmmm, boycott,??? well they just don't allow you to do some work, if you are not on their network, or don't agree to their terms,,, guess it's not boycotting, but sure the heck is STEERING!hmmm

Most standard format glass invoices have a clause at the bottom that states
" I hereby authorize and empower the above named insurance company to pay this invoice in full settlement, satisfaction and discharge of all loss under the above policy. Upon such payment, all rights I may have for claim and demand for loss and damage described above against the above named insurance company shall be thereby forever discharged. In the event that the above named insurance company does not make timely and/or full payment of this invoice according to it's terms, I accept responsibility for such payment and agree to pay all charges reflected on this invoice to the above named glass company subject to and according to all terms and conditions on this invoice".

The customer signs on the line under this statement.

Sorry, My comment was referencing the post from BLY above!!

XXX, here's how the 'fine line' works:

tpa's and ins co's do set pricing,,,, tpa's and ins co'c do divide territories,,,( A market, B market, C market ect.)

The networks say the insurers set the pricing, and the insurers either say that it's based on market surveys, demographics, and market data, or they say that the networks do that. Either way, they claim to have researched it, but fail to produce such research when requested as "proprietary information". How public data, gathered from the public, in public, by the public, for public use, is proprietary, is beyond me.




hmmm, boycott,??? well they just don't allow you to do some work, if you are not on their network, or don't agree to their terms,,, guess it's not boycotting, but sure the heck is STEERING!

INsurers do not allow or disallow shops to do work. (well the not-so-bright ones might) They know they are not contracting for repairs, they just want us to think they are. If push ever comes to shove, they will always say, for a variety of reasons, that the customer chose the shop, whether in network, or out. Does steering occour? Well, duh, sure. Now, all you have to do is prove it. (stop giggling Hal, it's coming and it will be about more than just steering)

Mark1,
Would you care to elaborate on that last point?

Glass Lady

Can you say "COLLUSION"

No, Glass Lady, I don't think that would be wise.

Patience. Sorry.

IB,
NAGS and the insurance companies are representing us in those meeting. That is why we keep getting less and less for the same glass every year, while the cost of living continues to escalate.

Funny, our medical insurance renewed last week at a 17% increase. But the last NAGS went down by 1% and a couple of insurance companies have taken deeper discounts.

We can represent ourselves by passing increased cost to ALL our end users!

United we stand, divide we fall!

Just had SGC offer me 10% over cost on a glasspart. Can someone tell me of, or name any industry or business that has only a 10% markup on their products? Well we got lucky as I was on the phone with one of their "charming" associates/CSR's whatever, I had my online ordering system up and I'll be darned if my vendor didn't sell their last one then and there, so unfortunately we will not be able to take the scraps on this one.
We just had to say NO!

Mark1, I was reading a few replies back and saw something that got me really excited , if you say it's coming I believe you....I haven't a clue what IT is, but considering the source is enough for me. You are on top of the situation, I wish I knew half, fuget it, 1/10th of what you know about this business. If you say change is on the way, I'm in a holding pattern till it happens, because I have faith in your knowledge

LOL, Hawk, you don't have to wait on me.....or anyone else for that matter. MANY are obviously working for change, and are sick and tired of being pushed around.

This entire industry is on the edge of imploding. The recent articles about short pays should be sending shock waves through this industry like million volt lightning bolts.

Seriously, it shows that the "You're the only one!" line of horsepucky that the networks have been telling this industry when ever someone complains is about as accurate as Nags benchmark.

Point is...change starts at each of our own front doors. From there, the snowball rolls downhill. If ever there was a 'cliche' that I would coin for this industry to follow, it would be "CHANGE IS NOT A SPECTATOR SPORT".

Mark1, I totally agree with you. Most of us are already banding together in theory and thought. Unfortunatly, most of us don't know enough to be able to get this off the ground and moving. I feel, bottom line, that most of us, and individuals WANT to do something here, we just don't feel strong enough to do this on our own. We have had a few people post different ideas, I think, looking for someone to DO something. I have always been the type to take the ball and run with it, but I feel that this is bigger than what I can accomplish on my own. So, I guess at this point, I am concerned about the legalities here. In other words, what can we legally do without getting a law suit thrown at us? I'm aware that you aren't an attorney, but you do seem to be a little more versed on that end of things than most of us are.

Someone mentioned to me that my previous post may have sounded like I was 'chewing out' Hawk.

Hawk, if that was the case, I profoundly apologize. That was not my intent.

Mark1, It didn't sound to me like you were chewing Hawk out. You made a very good point that I think gave us all some food for thought. I think that Hawk is more mature than that and could probably see what you were attempting to point out. If I am wrong Hawk, then you have my apology also.

Hey Glass Lady and Mark1, I appreciate whomever attempted to come my defense, however none was needed as I did not take any offense to your reply Mark, and thanks Glass Lady for your astute awareness of my maturity . Mark you answered my reply as you always do with respect and as much helpful knowledge as you can provide. Which by the way is always appreciated. I agree with Glass Lady I to would like to be proactive but find myself feeling intimadated by the "system" which is a new emotion for me, as nothing has ever intimadated me....I jump out of airplanes for goodness sake. So why am I intimadated by TPA's and insurance companies? Check out this article from glassbytes newsletter.

http://www.glassbytes.com/newseversmansays20060906.php

Hawk,
Now that's showing maturity!! LOL!!

Thanks Hawk, and Glass Lady, I was a bit concerned in that I've really been grabbing that soapbox lately, thought perhaps I had allowed the finger to point at someone unintentionally while preaching too much.

To Eversman's article: I've said before that I'm not a lawyer, and I don't give legal advice, but I try to listen to lawyers that do....well Erica is one of them. Much useful info on her website.

I think I figured out how the network's get thier pricing structure. The way I see it is that there is power in numbers, there parent company goes into the insurance company & sells PRICE! only because that is all they have to offer (they also sell this price with percentage of work the ins. company gives them not you), then they turn around & tell there network's that this is what we are doing the job for & the network's uses this as thier "FAIR MARKET PRICING". Now bare with me......in the network they have thier contracts which they made alot of companys beleive they have to sign so that they can do insurance work & the sell from the network is that they will also supply the shops that sign on with "work", now add the amount of companys on these network's & you will see that the contract holds the shop to the pricing structure of thier parent company & with all the shops signed on to these contracts gives the network's strength because of the numbers & this is how I beleive they are justifying "FAIR PRICING STRUCTURE". If your shop depends on the networks for survival then you get what you get, However if all the shops drop the network's contracts & demand what we justify fair then who would be holding the pen. If this were to happen this would force the network's out of the loop of controling price structure. Glass shops can complain all they want but as long as they are part of these contracts they are part of the problem.