I am in the midwest region of the nation and was wondering if anybody else has seen these guys being very aggressive to get all of the work.They really seem to be ruining the market fast.Top 250 shields for one timers going for less than 180.WOW!DUMB

Absolutely yes they have. AGS is suddenly quoting around 180.00 - 200.00 for any w/s (or less). Started the week after Belron bought them.

IN OUR AREA THEY ARE THE DT'S AND SAFELITE'S. THEY DON'T GET THIER WORK BY BEING GOOD, JUST FAST AND CHEAP. QUANTITY, NOT QUALITY. WE DON'T EVEN TRY TO COMPETE WITH THEM ON PRICE, BUT WE BEAT THEM ALL TO HECK ON SAFETY, QUALITY, AND CUSTOMER SERVICE. I'VE WATCHED THIER INSTALLERS,,,SAME OLE HACK TACTICS, JUST ANOTHER NAME!

As a Belron AGS employee I can attest that we are retaining the same high quality, industry standard of auto glass repair and replacement that we always have - and the hacks are fewer than you would speculate. Sorry that Belron brings with it a more competitive financial backing - that just means we are back in the market on nearly even ground again.

Financial backing does not make or allow a company to be competitive, unless the plan is to lose money. Low prices are for unimaginative businessmen. Explain to me how it makes sense to do more jobs for less money.

Owner - It doesn't take much imagination to understand that what AGS needed was a commitment to the service centers rather than to their corporate office - which Belron's financial backing has facilitated. That being said, I would agree that if we were to conduct business on a volume basis only, we would be losing in the long run, but unless you are privvy to insider information that I am not, it is premature to define BELRON's strategy with AGS as volume-only.

All I know is that I worked for ags 10 years ago,and from what I here is there has been alot of scary changes for the people there,God knows the glass industry has to and that has alot to do with the company changes,But answer me how ruining the market is going to get them ahead?It may get some work for awhile but as soon as they raise prices a liitle those accounts will go to the lowest price,and nothing to show for but loss.Granted belron is a huge company and might take a loss in areas for awhile but that will only last so long.We who have been in this long enough know that,and have seen it.

Safelite used to have stores, now look at them, the DT in our area has a store that looks as if it should be condemned. What happens when you lose your store, will you still be saying that Belron knows what it is doing. Belron was here once before, remember Vistar. They went lowball then too, and ended up selling to Safelite.

They pretty much walked out on Safelite due to the reputation and low quality. That is not how they want to be known. From what I have seen, they have taken some of the best shops as far as quality and customer service.
I have heard others on this board talk about low balling it just to take a job from SGC or DT. Why can't Belron do just that. Who's to say they aren't making a profit?
Most won't take a job to go backwards!

Thanks KT... my thoughts exactly. Belron pulled out of the US market because of the way Safelite played the issue before - and BECAUSE of THEIR tactics, not Belrons. I'm sorry that Belron is big enough to concern the smaller shops and consortiums, but they are also big and experienced enough to know how to make it work for them - just take a look at Glass Pros and Elite Auto Glass in the western U.S. and tell me if they are short-terming it or not...

JC,I really dont know how they are doing?You work for them now,are they advertising cheap like they are here or are they stressing customer service and quality,my guess both?That is a hard thing to beat somtimes.The funny thing is where I am at they have always owned 80%of the market and they are going into every place {even the techs}and telling them every shield for under 170.It seems they must have alot of pressure on them or they are just on a power trip because of the new owners.I still know and talk to many friends that work there and all seem to be on cloud 9.I just hope for them it lasts.The bottom line is that there is many small agr shops that know how to make it and have a strong backbone.They will allways be there no matter how much pressure they put on us smaller guys,there will always be loyal customers that would rather support the hometown shops than a company that is owned over seas.THis corporate usa thing is now starting to backfire on them and steering more towards the small businesses.Anyways,best of luck I hope for your sake they treat you good.

Reality - well, I will tell you that being a part of Belron has instilled some confidence in all of us - and as for the pricing - as one individual put it to me today:

"Belron has global buying power."

That in and of itself effects our ability to offer lower prices.

The key to ANY glass business however, is quality service -- AGS has ALWAYS been committed to quality service, and if we continue to offer that same service at a lower price we will not be effected by the negative dirt-throwing that some of the 'competition' will be handing our customers. (Lest the competition start making the mistake of thinking that our customers are suddenly dumb and don't recognize a good deal when the get one.)

JC when did AGS commit to quality not quantity? I can't seem to remember seeing any evidence of that. As for belron cutting safelite loose because of safelite's reputation & low quality, wouldn't you think someone would have researched the company they were partnering with BEFORE they went into business with them? .... KT - occasional low-balling a price is far different than establishing a low-ball price across the board. how long before jobs are lost, shops are closed and hopes are crushed. get real people. history dictates that whenever a big boy comes in & takes over, they present a wine & roses picture to the original employees and when everything has settled down, the heads roll, the jobs are lost, the shops close.... PPG and Independent come to mind....... nice. real nice...

I agree with IAE, matching or beating a competitor is a lot different than establishing pricing 100 bucks cheaper than the rest of the market for no reason other than to squeeze other shops out. It is just ridiculous for any size company to low-ball as a philosophy because you are leaving money right out on the table. Do you see PPG low-balling parts?
JC you can spew on as long as you want, you're rep in Wisconsin is going from pretty good to similar or worse than Safelite.

I am sure some area's have tougher competition than others. I charge whatever I feel is a good price in my market. Belron has not told my shop to charge 170 or any other price for that matter. It all goes along with the auto glass game of what a store is capable of doing to stay alive.
Belron has treated us pretty good and I for one am very happy with the arrangements. Who knows what the future holds but it sure beats the crap out of SGC or any other company I have ever worked for in my 15 years in this industry.
It's not like we are all buying Made in America glass. The money you spend on a part goes to another country most of the time anyway. Half the stuff in your house is from another country. We all make the world go round
Life is a game of survivor isn't it?!

There has been many {big boys}before that have tried to do the low price thing and in the end they get hurt.Global buying power is huge,but I have a hard time believing that they are getting glass cheaper than 94% to 95% off nags.The distributers need to servive to.Dt and alot of the big boys are in the 92% to 95% range,no affense, but this looks alot like the walmart way,tell your distributers what discount they have to give you or they will buy you,It leaves them no choice because belron buys so much glass they can not afford to not agree to their terms.This sucks for the hard working agr shops that are just trying to make a living and give their customers high quality and service.I dont want to sound cocky,but it is very hard to crush some little guys,they are usally the ones with a very strong clientel.They also take their career very personal because it is their life blood to servive.

KT: Your'e right about "survival". But why does AGS and Safelite, Triumph and the hacks in vans see the need to undercut current market pricing by huge percentages? It makes no sense, and raises eyebrows when presented to body shop and service managers. They wonder why a Tahoe w/s just went from 275.00 to 180.00 in a week and makes them suspicious of the low ballers.

KT,are you a ags branch or a belron franchise?thanks

It all depends on who's paying I would suppose. Cash as you all know it money in the bank today. Shops doing jobs for dealerships are running about that price too. Just depends on your market. The lovely networks have been driving down the prices for years. Don't blame Belron for that. You never know, they may be the ones to pull the industry in the US back in the glass shops control. Someone needs to drive down SGC and DT right? WHAT IF Belron is the one who can pull that off? Look who's involved in it. Some of the founders of CAGGS are now employed by Belron. I know it's nice to vent about who is doing what. Yet the truth is we are all here together in this industry and this forum. Those who care are reading this right now. Those that want to wine are venting! That's ok too. Those that are professional are really listening and thinking about the WHAT IF factor.
I happen to work with the best group in this industry and am very proud of it. I trust my installers and the quality of work they do. Our accounts love us and refer many our way. I don't allow the networks to pressure me or do I like the networks. I put up with them for the sake of our customers. We refuse to go backwards on a job. Profit and Quality means as much to my job security as does most others in this forum.
The differences with most of us in this forum is the drastic pricing percentages we all get. Not everyone can charge over the NAGS list price. My market is way way below NAGS prices.

Kt,I think you are right{hopefully}about belron trying to get the market back on its feet,but they are going to have a hard time targeting only a handful of middle market players.I have heard they want to put alot of pressure on DT,SGC,KD and so on,Their gole is to be the #1 everywhere.Granted alot of big companys have tried this before,but belron has very deep pockets that the other companys cant even come close.There are some 200 year old companys that have big shares involved in belron.I think we are all going to see big changes very soon in this industry due to belron,some good and some bad.It will put the hurt on everybody,but I guess a few wounds is worth winning the war.Its just to bad that they also target smaller well known,high quality shops where a profitable pricing has been set,they come in and dont seem to do the research in every area and just drop prices by 100.I am not kidding,It will be intresting to see what happens,maby!

You guys are crazy. It isnt the networks driving down prices, it is the companies that are lowering thier prices to gain market share. Seems to me people want to sit back and hope Belron can pull thier butts out of the fire. Newsflash----- Belron is in it for themselves, not you. Another big player using low prices- Yeah!!! That is great news for the industry .

NEWS FLASH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have to agree with OWNER, you guys are nuts! This thread shows exactly why this industry is struggleing so bad with pricing. "HERE'S YOUR SIGN"! Do any of you need it any clearer,,,,, low ball pricing for what ever reason is killing auto glass. Luckily no-one is killing the market with low balling flat, residential glass or even more of us would be going under. We will keep our cash installs in the 300-400 range, and our average ins job between 400-500. Even if we got our GLASS or w/s's for FREE we would be losing money installing for 180-200. You can't even pay the bills, pay properly for your help and maintain your equipment at those low ball rates. I pity any of you that are in markets like that,, but you can only look to the shops that did it. And these are SMART business people????? YEA RIGHT!

Belron trying to get the industry back on it's feet? How? by becoming a bigger & better safelite/dt? "winning the war?" and the winner is? does the word "monopoly" mean anything to you KT? what Belron is attempting is to literally take over the industry and the rest be ****ed! come on is anyone out there believing any of this b.s.? i'm sure the employees of safelite et.al. think their companies are the ag industry saviours too! easy to think that way when they're paying your bills. 15 years in the business. some of us have been in it longer... we remember AGS telling the customers that love them so "we'll buy all our moldings from you. but only if you guarantee 100% of your business goes to us" yeah, customers love feeling like that gun on their temple. And you put up with the Networks because you have no choice. the only butt Belron cares about is their own. just keep lowering those prices. just keep blowing smoke to your employees... good going enron .. oops! i mean belron

IAE,I agree,I think these guys should get off thier ego trip,Because I to have been in this more than 15 years to,and this is a good way to ruin it, not only for themselves but everyone else.It is almost sickening to here how proud they are of working for them,they are being brainwashed.Some people are way to easy.I hope for the techs,they dont beleive everything they are told.

Who else here believes global buying power means nothing anymore. Unless you are a shop owned by a glass manufacturer, then you're not buying much better than anyone else, and if you're a big chain of stores, then you have way more overhead then a mom and pop. Being big just means you can last longer at the cheaper prices. Wonder what it will all be like 5yrs from now?

hope I last 5 years, twice the work for the same money but the cost go up. If I could buy for 95% off I guess it would be different. The sellers could get back control if the could control themselfs, with one is in bankrupcy and despret the others seem to think they have to follow. It seems to me that a qualty product and control of their market would make long term sence. sorry my spell check fanished , how do you ghet it back on the tools?

I understand the points being made - and appreciate both the concern and the perception that people have about Belron -- who can trust the giants with so many examples of bad to reflect upon.

I will address four issues and then leave the discussion up to you all.

First - concerning our pricing. I can tell you that I am the person giving the prices to the customers in my market, to begin with. I do not drop pricing off of NAGS on every order, or even on most orders - but if I have the flexibility to do so to get a job, and need to drop the pricing -- like most people - I do. I know as well as anyone else that the majority of the profit is in the labor, and that we have been playing the margin with NAGS for a long time. A little side-note about AGS offering lower prices: We have been firmly in the upper middle of the pricing structure in most of our markets for a while - with the one man shops under-cutting us for a long time - if we return the gesture by placing ourselves in the bottom third of the market in terms of pricing and it works for us as it is - good.

Second issue: Belron is not in the business of buying a company and then contracting (Dumping stores). That does not mean that they didn't get rid of our overhead (the big Corporate structure that AGS had), but their commitment is to the retail stores. If any of you are under the false impression that Belron is inexperienced in this industry or that they are not firmly in a MARKET growth mode - feel free to check out their web-sites.

Third issue: We aren't brain-washed. We were hard-working, quality-driven individuals working as Auto Glass Specialist employees BEFORE the buy-out. Now we are hard-working, quality-driven individuals working as Auto Glass Specialist dba Belron Inc. Employees.

Fourth issue: Reputation. I am not seeing a drop in the number of orders we are getting: cash, insurance or corporate. In fact, we are picking up new accounts and having an increase in the insurance referrals (in February). If our reputation is being bashed, my guess is that those negative remarks are coming from YOU - as in the competition. We won't bad-mouth our competition to get ahead. If you have to resort to it - I pity you.

I pity you for knocking prices down far below what was market level 2 months ago, and just leaving that money out there for no reason whatsoever. Price dropping by 100.00 overnite is simply a foolish business plan.

So true. He obviously doesnt manage from a P&L. Cutting prices is bush league.

I am not doing $100 price dropping - not once have I issued that deep of a discount.

A 15-20% discount on some jobs, yes, but $100 price dropping?? Not me. Are there some $100 price drops taking place? I wouldn't doubt it. Remember, we use the same flexibility that you do to turn a quote into a workorder, and that really means knowing how far you NEED to discount to get the job and still gain a fair profit for the work.

Here is the key information you Belron Critics need to remember (As I stated in my previous post): Prior to being authorized to offer price reductions, we were in the upper 3rd of all the combined market pricing, now we are still only amoung the higher end of the bottom 3rd - that means that there are plenty of those known as our competition who are still beating our pricing on a regular basis, and they aren't considered hacks.

It never ceases to astound me how some will think so far inside the box that they cannot apply what their competition does to their own business practices and draw the conclusion that we aren't really that different from store to store.

There is a huge difference between guys that have worked for big corporations or do everything themselves.There are different views.Being a little guy is,and doing everything yourslf(sales,installs,acc,ordering ect)is something that the (you are just a # guys)will never have to deal with.Dont get me wrong,I chose to leave one of the big guys many years ago,and glad to this day I did,but more times than not the little shops know alot more on what is really going on than the guys receiving a monthly newsletter or company manager meetings.JC,to the little shops belron is just another sgc,dt and so on.Alot of small shop owners that I know just want to make a living,not take on the world and get 95% of all the work.That is what belron wants,I know I heard it pretty much come from the (glassgodfather)you know who I am talking about.Maybe you runyour shop the right way,but beleive me,not every ags shop is doing it your way.In my area they are talking smack and lowering prices by,at least 80.on most glass.Long time respected salesman that work for ags,or have come back that used to stress quality now badmouth everybody and push cheap prices.Maybe you should understand every area in and out of the box,before laying all of your cards out about belron.sorry man,that is reality

VERY WELL PUT!!!!!, THANK YOU REALITYGLASS. AND THAT IS REALITY! JC,,,, WHATEVER!!!! YOU MAKE ME LAUGH!!!

Your kidding, right? You think that you are "thinking outside of the box" by dropping prices? You are so deep in the box you will never see daylight.

Reality is what it is to each of us - and that is based on perspective, IMHO. I don't disagree with the sentiment that lowering prices accross the board and bad-mouthing the comp. is the right way to do business. In fact, I really agree with the idea that lowering prices suddenly and accutely (as in 40 - 50% discounts on glass) just plays into the TPA's and customer's hands in the long run.

What I do NOT agree with is the uninformed attitude that prevails about Belron. First of all, Belron is not condoning bad-mouthing. Second of all - Belron is not telling us to drop prices by any particular amount - they are simply telling us go after our jobs. How far each store or person drops those prices is up to them and should be based on an informed decision about whether or not we are still making a decent profit on the job, or whether or not we are just cutting our overall profits. (sound like a familiar practice to any of you? Or perhaps you jack prices up? What is the right or wrong way to price?) Reality is: It's relative.

Not to be argumentative, Reality - but I am not just a #'s guy. I don't operate on some quota system, nor do I track things according to number of orders. We seek to meet or exceed what we would like to make each day, week, month and year. Secondly, I don't just take orders. I order supplies (from glass to Toilet Paper), I conduct banking, inventory, communicate with TPA's on claims, and help coordinate the Sales goals with our Outside sales reps.

Here's reality: I like working for AGS - I like working for Belron DBA AGS. Here's another reality: Those of you who say something to yourselves like, "Oh, there's JC again, that dumb-a - -" I wonder how many of you would say anything at all if I were an Independent with the same attitude of TRYING to be competitive?

That's the box I am referring to, Reality. The one that makes one say, "Oh, that's a Belron guy, he's either brain-washed or a jerk" and "oh, that's a fellow independent, he's either doing it right or just uninformed."

News flash -- You guys make me laugh too...

Yes! I am critical of independents that are competing on price, as well. It requires absolutely no business skills whatsoever to cut prices, and it just gives the insurance companies (and TPAs) that much more ammunition to cut our pricing. Cutting prices does not only affect your company - it NEGATIVELY affects the whole industry. STOP DOING IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is always fun to listen to people feeding off of there emotions.wow!

I've got an idea. We should all get together and have a meeting and set a price down or discount that we will all abide by and then the insurance,cash customer, and body shop owner will all pay the same price or they won't get any glass work done, then we'll get work based on skill rather than price, this should solve all our problems, don't you think?

Gee, Ed, that's against the law.

Jc,I never said you were or thought you were a dumb----.I was wondering what you thouht agout belron when they were with safelite and vistar?I assume that you were with ags then as a whole company.Thats when ags,at least in my area was doing very well.They kept the price up there and many smart ind shops went right along with them.There is always a couple of bad apples in the bunch that ruin the market by dropping prices way to much,But I know around here the other big guys ruined it a long time ago.I know its easy to label eachother,but reading alot of these posts it seems like alot of people on here all agree on one thing.(making a profit or at least surviving).Chances are most of the little guys really ruining the market dont even reply on this site.I dont see many sgc or dt guys on here either.good luck!

Ed, didn't you know that only the insurance industry can get together with each other to create auto insudtry pricing? Didn't you know that only the insurance industry is allowed to get together with another industry ((NAGS))to lay down the law regarding pricing? And we get accused of conspiring when we even discuss the issue together. . would that we could. ******JC were you working for AGS when AGR shops met in Madison with the AGS attorneys to discuss the unreasonable AM FAM & State Farm pricing structures? just wondering. Also, don't take the criticism so personal. Any company would be lucky to have an employee that is so loyal. I think Belron's main purpose IS to squeeze out the middle people. By that i mean the auto glass shops that have more than 2 employees but less than 50. Anybody can work out of their truck and still survive. We in the mid shops depend on fair market practices to survive. Belron can absorb sales dollar losses. Once the mid shops are gone, then woo woo! They cornered the market and can pretty much do whatever they like. As much as i and apparantly a lot of other people hate it; that's just (i hope i don't blech!) doing business. *****but see, we just want our jobs and whenever someone threatens that, we get a little you know p-o'd!

Global buying power huh? I know one man shops that are paying the same for their glass as Belron is. I also wonder why these GREAT glass shops are selling themselves to Belron. Belron hasn't ruined the US market. If anything, the independents have by abiding to the networks in the first place. It has pretty much been forced on us all now, especially if you want the work from certain insurance companies or agent.
Yeah maybe the changes Belron plans to do just haven't hit my area yet. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. All I know is I will keep giving our customers the Highest quality of installation and customer service there can be. Plus I must have job security, which I have. I would rather work for a big outfit where I am secure than a small shop that can barely make it.
Oh I should correct myself as well. I have been in this industry now for 17 years now! Woohoo!
There are plenty of rumors flying around about Belron. Lots of assumptions too. Seems they have shook up some people by re-entering the US market. Got some scared glass shops out there. The way I look at it.. there is enough glass out there for all of us. If you really care about this industry and want to stay in it, you will help out the players that are trying to unite and do something about the insurance and TPA side of things. Help them help all of us get control of the pricing again.

Anyone here been in the business long enough to remember Windshields America; later Windshields of America?
FYI: You can expect a repeat performance, because for those of you that don't know WA was Belron. Obviously, there non compete arrangement with Safelite is over now and that is probably why they are re-entering the market. Surprising to me they didn't re-enter as a network as before.

Your right Friend, Windshields America was part of Belron and they merged with Safelite creating Vistar Autoglass. Then Belron split from Safelite and went out of the US. Most everyone I know was very happy with Belron when it was just WA. A lot of people left when Safelite entered the mix with Belron. Some of those that left created Elite Auto Glass, Glaspro, ect. Now Belron re-enters and partnered back up with their old friends from the WA business. They know who is doing good business. They have done their homework, in my opinion. I sure do miss the days of WA. Thanks for the memory!

didn't safelite enter the mix only after Belron had changed the name to Vistar? And then they merged and became all safelite.

when Belron and Safelite merged, they became Vistar. Then Belron backed out and Vistar went back to Safelite.

Here's the true story. Belron (WA here in the U.S.) purchased 51% of Globe Glass. The merged company became VISTAR. VISTAR, at the behest of the Belron folks in London, purchased 51% of Safelite. However, the deal was structured, at THL's insistence, so that it would appear that Safelite acquired VISTAR. The fools at Belron let the Safelite folks run the company, even adopting the Safelite name. Barlow and his boys ran the company into the ground. Belron lost everything. THL walked away laughing.

Now Belron is back. Let's hope they learned their lesson.