I guess perhaps this is a rant and a plethora of questions for all of us that truly do care to do a job correctly and honestly and do care about our customers safety above all else, even the almighty dollar.
Has anyone, and I regret even the thought of this, ever looked into adopting a program in their legislative efforts to require a glass shop to report to government agencies when they replace a windshield on a vehicle so it can be readily traced?
Maybe a program where glass shops must register what piece of glass was replaced, the DOT# on the part, batch #'s as well (AGRSS already asks for these to be traceable so it should not be any extra cost on our end)and recorded to the government agency involved by VIN#. I believe the auto body repair industry already does something similar to this if I am not mistaken in several states.
I am reluctant to start the rant, but I will. Bare in mind I am a bit upset at the moment that we continue to allow these things to happen, and little to nothing is being done about it, and very few records are every recorded to investigate and determine the underlying problem; be that installer error, manufacturer/product failure, or a contamination problem in shipping, etc.
Today a customer called in to our facility about a moulding on a newer dodge caravan that was "flapping in the wind" as it had rolled off the glass edge. We thought we could simply apply a small amount of adhesive to hold this in place. When she arrived she actually had duct tape all over the moulding, two widths wide to hold the moudling on. It was a good thing she did as the entire moulding was released. After further conversation we are made aware it has been leaking as well for some time. She has taken it back to the dealership (used car) that she purchased the vehicle from. They have taped it, tried to seal it, etc. but to no avail. I am not sure, in all honesty, if they did the warranty work or if they subbed that work out, which most dealerships do in our area.
Anyhow, as we removed the tape, we saw the windshield move (lift out away from the pinch weld). We immediately stopped all work and showed the customer the problem. In fact after getting her approval, we looked at the entire glass and all of it was releasing from the pinch weld. The tape was all that appeared to be holding the windshield in place as the entire bead of urethane had adhesion failure. We did the usual procedure, informing her of her risk, advised her to replace immediately, etc. A story many of you have seen or heard all too often regrettably.
But here is the real burning issue for me. What if this customer gets in a major accident today before she replaces that windshield? Who is liable? Who keeps track of the installer and company that actually did the replacement? Is each and every one of us truly responsible for that windshield until it is replaced again? If there is no means to force proper record keeping, that is truly traceable, why should any company do it properly (besides the obvious reason)? How do we legislate or by other means, get rid of these companies/installers that simply do not care and know that there is NOTHING in place that can hold them accountable for improper installations? That they know the odds are one in a billion of them ever being involved in litigation let alone actually being truly responsible in a criminal way. And I do not want to assume that this installer did this particular job improperly either. This could be a bad primer issue, being an XYG glass perhaps a contamination issue from crating, or an adhesive failure for some other reason.
My head is spinning, so I am sorry if this is dragging on and on, or is somewhat confusing in nature.
BUT THIS HAS TO STOP!!!!!! I AM SO INCREDIBLY TIRED OF THESE THINGS HAPPENING IN OUR INDUSTRY AND THE APPARENT "BLIND EYE" THE INSURANCE COMPANIES AND THE GOVERNMENT, FOR THE MOST PART, TURN ON THIS ISSUE.
Any input would be so appreciated. How often do many of you see such complete windshields falling out? How do we go about making companies accountable (and I do not mean accountable only when someone dies in a wreck, as we all know many accident reports do not even note windshield failure anyway).
Sorry again for the rant/long thread, but this one really got me fired up today knowing this customer and her family have been driving around with their heads and bodies potentially just moments away from being spread all over the pavement.
CCC: You do not carry any liability as you profesionally explained her options and made her aware of the potential dangers....you cannot force anyone to replace their w/s anymore than fixing a clogged chimney. She should be lucky/glad she came to you guys...
GOOD RANT CCC. WE TOO HAVE SEEN FAR TOO MUCH OF THIS. LAST SUMMER AND 1 LAST FALL. CUSTOMER CALLS SAYS HIS W/S IS LOOSE. HMMM I WAS THINKING LOOSE MLDG. THEY CAME IN, WE CHECK IT OUT. ENTIRE TOP OF W/S COMING OUT DW1226. WE EXPLAIN THE DANGERS, NEXT DAY THEY BRING IT IN WE PULLED OFF THE MLDG TO FIND IT WAS THE ONLY THING HOLDING THE W/S IN! CONCLUSION,,, NO PRIMERS THAT WE COULD FIND, WERE USED ON ANY PART,GLASS OR PINCHWELD! NEXT ONE WE HAD, A YOUNG LADY COMES IN SAYS HER W/S IS LEAKING, UPON EXAMINATION WE FIND IT TO BE LIFTING AT THE BOTTOM. WE SCHEDULE HER AS QUICKLY AS WE CAN. WE FOUND, GET THIS, WE REMOVED THE WIPERS, COWL, AND SIDE MLDS, CHEV S-10 P/UP, AND LIFTED THE W/S RIGHT OUT! NO ADHESION WHAT SO EVER. SAME CONCLUSION,, WE COULD FIND NO TRACE OF ANY PRIMERS EITHER GLASS OR PINCHWELD! I CANNOT BELIEVE THIS WAS DONE IN SOME SHOP SOMEWHERE. SO I WILL SAY THE MOBILE HACKS HAVE GOT TO STOP THIS KIND OF LIFE THREATENING GARBAGE. NOW, I AM NOT SAYING ALL MOBILE GUYS ARE HACKS,,, JUST THE ONES THAT DO THIS KIND OF WORK! THERE'S MY RANT! I DO BELIEVE IF THERE WAS A WAY TO HOLD THESE GUYS ACCOUNTABLE THIS WOULD STOP,, HMM THE BEST WAY TO DO IT,,,, I'M NOT SURE!
are you planning on r & r the windshield? the problem is that the primer on the glass may not be compatible with the urethanes you use, then what do you do?
unfortunately if we tell a customer that we will have to replace the entire w/s it makes us sound like we are trying to make exta money. it's like pulling teeth getting a car dealer to do the right thing, they usually go somewhere else unless warranty will pay for it.
I HAVE TO ADD 1 MORE THING. JUST AS BAD AS THIS IS, GET THIS,,,, BOTH CUSTOMERS PAID OUT OF POCKET BECAUSE THIER INS CO, WOULD NOT COVER THIS LIFE THREATENING, ABSOLUTLY NEEDED REPAIRS! THEY SAID IT WAS NOT BROKEN,,HA HA TOO BAD, AND ALSO TRIED TO SAY IT WAS WEAR AND TEAR, NOT A COMP CLAIM. WHAT, DID THEY NEED TO THROW A BRICK THROUGH IT? I DON'T KNOW WHICH OF THESE IS WORSE THE HACKS THAT DO IT OR THE INS IND THAT TURNS A BLIND EYE. ALL FOR THE SAKE OF $$$$$ BUT IT TOOK US TO MAKE IT RIGHT FOR AND WITH OUR CUSTOMER!
We never install a used windshield, AGRSS says no(at this time), we say no, and it just is not worth the risk to the customer or the liability risk for the company.
Im all for some accountability in AGR, but be careful what you wish for. Even after taking all the precautions to install a windshield correctly, you still may have problems. A couple of years back we had some problems with Essex primers not bonding to the glass. Of course, according to Dow, it was our inability to properly prep the glass for primer. Switched to Sika and have never had to look back. Are you really prepared to sign off and assume all liability on every windshield your company installs?
NO offense but that is like asking for the dealership to record the pad # installed in your brakes. I just don't have the time to write all that stuff down and they have someone send it off the the government. Sorry but I do not like that idea one bit.
I hear ya on the bad installs. Deal with them constantly in my area. Even the factory sets have many problems with leakers. People just need to be properly trained and have the best tools and supplies to work with. Customer's need to understand it takes more that 30 minutes to have the job done safely and properly. Not like we're a drive thru!
BREATH in and hold for 5 seconds! Feel good that you saved those lives
I agree that this can be a terrible problem, especially if someone gets hurt as a result. But, I have never found the government to be anything more than a model for inefficiency and waste. Not to say that something couldn't be figured out, like maybe the installer/company is required to mark the windshield somehow.
After today I am taking a brief vacation and I am going to really think about what we can do to get this country behind this growing issue. Thank all of you for the replies.
I did not mean to say we (glass shop) would assume ALL liability. Want I am meaning is if we assume the responsibility to get the data to the proper agency to track when the windshield is installed by us, batch#, DOT#, as most of us already do can it help get rid of the "problem installers" in our industry? The problem now seems that no one has access to this data except the company tracking it. This doesn't protect anyone in the long run. So we are asked to track this data to be in compliance with AGRSS yet it goes nowhere and benefits no one at this time.
The example given above was of a contamination issue where after the shop switched to SIKA they had no more problems. This is exactly my point. When things like that happen we would be able to find out what is really going on(bad primer batch,urethane, contamination, etc)., but without proper and easily accessible records no one can do anything about it. How do you prove that anyone even replaced a windshield that fell out? Even with the customer having an invoice in hand does not mean you installed the one currently in their vehicle.
We track brand and DOT# on each replacement, yet they could in some cases have another shop replace it with same brand and logo and we might never know. So the idea of being able to "TAG" the job might need to happen if a tracking system could be used.
But, I also sadly agree with others that have posted. No one really seems to care at this point. Consumers are largely ignorant to the danger that they face sitting behind that new windshield each day. We all know insurance companies seem to care little. They mainly care about their bottom line, and when a windshield falls out they will blame the glass company (that they paid next to nothing), and the glass company will blame the installer(who they "properly" trained but then forced to do 10 installs a day knowing he/she could not do them properly in the time allotted). Where does it end?
And the government, in most states, is unaware of the danger as well. And without proper recording of faulty installations there is simply no data to prove to them that this is indeed a large enough and urgent problem worth spending taxpayer dollars on. Who can blame them?
I understand changes can take years if not decades to happen. I understand that AGRSS and CASPA are great leaps in the education of consumers, AGR companies, and installers. I just wonder how many people will have to die or become paralyzed before we all say ENOUGH IS ENOUGH?
I fully agre,but there are so many factors in this problem.1 What about primers that ate thru ceramic frit,we see this weekly.Also manufacter problems.The urethane is now getting where it should have been 10 years ago.Look at qtr. glasses that flew out.Urethane would not stick to encap glass.Look how long before this was corrected.So we still have a lot of 6-10 year old vehicles now with urethane failure that customers were never warned of.Also think butyl with urethane backfill was legal at a time before we learned of the danger.
I just posted a small blurb on licenseing & I believe this would be part of the solution. I run into this problem in CT all the time with horrible installations most preformed by Safelite or Payless auto glass, but when the consumer knows that all installers are licensed with consumer protection then the tide will change for now the installer & or company is at stake and will be held accountable for thier own HACK JOB. We need to take back our trade and dictate to the pencil pushers that yes we do need to be respected for our knowledge & craft & if you don't like it then go to a lesser trade company, then perhaps after the insurance company or bigger company's keep getting sued then they will understand that we are not just installers but TRUE TRADESMEN!.
Any one do R&I's ? Isn't this the same as putting in a used piece of glass?? I asked this on the AGRSS forum when it was in use and never got a straight answer. The urethane manuf's all want to sell you their products as being the best, but when it comes to informing you as to witch thane to use in certain cars(witch is factory installed) they all tell you theirs is best. How do you know what thane is the proper one to use??? When there was a need for Hi-Mod and Non-Cond did anybody know about it? Nobody told us and we used essex on everything and never had a problem(that we know about). You can't even get a straight answer as to where certain thanes are made. You ask Sommer-Maca and it is made in France. CRL, who knows???????????????? You want new Laws about AUTO GLASS, have the manuf's declare where the thane is made and by whom, what was originally used, and what is compatible to use in all vehicles. Hey Ryan thanks for the INFO on armored cars. Thanks for the rant.
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