From a news article posted on Glassbytes.

- Busted: State has 360,000 windshield claims a year

"Fraud in the auto glass industry - which Elliott (Allstate Insurance) called "a major, major problem" - is a key contributor to the cost to consumers, in part because Arizona law lets glass companies bill insurance companies without customers seeing bills, she said.

The best way to avoid fraud when dealing with glass companies is to get a referral from an insurance agent, Elliott and Hoeffner (Maverick Glass) said.

Referrals from insurance companies account for 80 percent of Maverick's business, and having an insurance agent refer you to a reputable glass-repair firm is the best way to avoid overbilling, Maverick manager Steve Hoeffner says."



Ok, how many glass businesses has Allstate gone after for fraud? There should be PLENTY if it's a 'major, major problem', right?

Whom appointed Allstate and insurance agents as the 'overbilling police'? Who is checking on them? In the SAME article, Allstate's rates are significantly higher rates than their insurance competitors, in NONE were they the cheapest. If they are charging fair and reasonable rates, why aren't they ALL THE SAME RATES FOR EACH of the hypothetical drivers listed, just as they do WITH GLASS PRICES? What's good for the goose, is good for the gander, I say.

You should make sure you have your facts straight before you "slander" other companies on this board. I happen to have Allstate insurance and they are the lowest price company I have been able to work with. How would you possibly know their price structure? Ease up until you know the facts.

while on a related topic, how does harmon think they can get off calling me a subcontractor?

mark, any ramifications concerning liability, and i'm assuming we will be signing lien waivers when they pay?

i'm sure their legal teams have looked at every angle, so we are probably behind, but i haven't got a signed contract with harmon, so i don't understand their ability to consider me a subcontractor. my guess says they would be liable for the job, as any general contractor would be, and i would like to track the sales tax payments, that they are using for an excuse to do this. maybe if i am a subcontractor i don't care what they do with the tax money.

I don't see anything Mark2 is saying is slanderous in anyway! I agree if it is such a major problem, why aren't they going after the shops commiting the fraud. I personally believe the fraud going on is by the ins industry. raising rates, cutting claims, record profits. They do such a great job of SPINNING & twisting the truth to put the blame on others. Also,yyy, ALLSTATE is ONE of the WORST companies to work with from many stand points. This is not slander it is MY opinion, based on past experiences and I'm entitled to it. I would NEVER have allsnake ins or would I EVER refer anyone to them. I hope you have better luck with them. We are at a point with allstate and a few others, that we are unable to do work for OUR customers at the price they ILLEGALLY, shove down our throats! Gee you have allstate, progressive, allied, now farmers, etc, sorry Mr. customer, your ins co. by dicting to us, is ripping you off and not paying for the quality you deserve, so we will not compromise the quality you have come to trust with us, we will give you a very fair price and you can go deal with your ins co. When your tired of thier BS I will gladdly give you a list of much better co's that are easier to work with,, and by the way you WILL save $$$$! Consumers will become aware, in time!!!

yyy--

I think Mark2 was simply referencing the price quotes in the article. I think he was saying that the info in the articel showed them as the most expensive for the all the "test" consumers.

I am sure they are not the most expensive in every real-life case, but he was commenting as to the quotes listed in the article that was mentioned above.

It is a very interesting article that I hope all of you will read and give deep thought as to the real meaning behind it.

The thing that gets me is that although autoglass claims are by far the largest VOLUME of claims across most ins. co desks, they are also one of the LOWEST $$$ claims they handle. So why the squeeze? Why the pressure to make us all "look like thieves"? Why the continual trend toward less and less damage being covered under policies? It is a simple one word answer that I am sure you all know. Hint: $8.4 billion profits.

I still believe if the ins. co. would just WAKE UP, stop trying to control pricing and stop allowing steering, we would all beat eachother up to get work and they would save even more money in the long run.

And lastly, stop making us all pay for FRAUD. We are not a police agency. We have no authority to shut down shopXYZ for fraud. Stop using the few bad apples to justify their increased premiums and "necessay price controls". Go after the shop commiting FRAUD. Use your vast resources to SHUT THEM DOWN. I am sure amny many of us would be very supportive and cooperative in these efforts. Most of us in the AGR industry do not like fraud either, it distorts the truth about our professionalism, and it drives our prices down as well.

Call us sometime Mr. Insurance and let us help you and ourselves by stopping these FRAUD SHOPS in their tracks.

Here is a way to stop fraud, or atleast cut down on it. As an isurance company hire yourself a few thousand more claim adjusters, pay them about $50,000 a year plus health benefits, and have them go check every claim for broken glass that is filed. Then when the job is done, go back and make sure it is up to snuff. Or just except the fact that no matter what business your in there is going to be a very small portion of money lost to "fraud", "theft", or whatever else you want to call it... retail stores call it shrinkage every business has it, when you put in terms of dollars, it may seem high in the insurance field, but not when compared to the amount of profit the insuance company generates, put it in terms of percentage. If the insurance company made $8billion in profit the fraud probably adds up to a fraction of a percent, where as in the glass business you scratch a car, damage a dash or two, you looking at a couple or percentage points in damage a year. So in my humble opinion, stop whinning, you make money by basically doing nothing...think about it, at the end of the day what have you done, you took some money from here, and you put a little there. Now I am not saying glass tech deserve a nobel prize or anything, but at the end of the day you took something that was broke and fixed it, you should get some kind of satisfaction out of that fact.

I for 1 would like to be one of thier high paid adjusters. I wouldn't have to work nearly as hard and get paid about 10 times what I do right now!!!I would probably even get a paid vacation and a week off once a year! Please buy me out of the glass bus, and hire me onto the insurance side!

I think something else the insurance industry could do is get laws passed that force any service provider, to fully disclose in writting what they are charging the insurance co. How many customers do you think would question a $1000 windshield today? Not even one if they didn't know you charged $1000? I know there is a percentage that would not care how much the insurance is paying (until you explain how that influences their premiums) as they hate the ins industry anyway, but I think most insureds would care.

I do not know how many times a week I get someone who had another company replace their windshield and they never know how much their insurance was charged. A lot of our competition will not give you a copy of the insurance billed invoice. And worse yet, anyone on a SGC contract, they used to require you TO NOT DISCLOSE the price the insurance is paying. At least they used to have that language in their contract. Anyone know if they still do?? I wonder why that is? Why would SGC not want the policyholder knowing what they(SGC ultimately) are charging the ins. co.?

Maybe if we all had to disclose the prices we are charging ins. co. then perhaps some of this "major major problem" of fraud (which sounds more like a great excuse to justify to legislators why they need price controls)would subside. And maybe, if the ins. co. would actually hunt this fraud down, and stop it at its sorce, including TPA's, we would all be better off.

Sorry everyone, but that article from Tucson really got me thinking today. And like Shop Owner says in his thread, the legitimate repair industry has saved the ins. co. billions most likely and yet they still want more and more, and now paint a picture of fraud and deceit instead of hunting down these real criminals and putting them out of business. My guess, it is far easier and cheaper to steal from our pockets, than to chase and stop the criminals.

My favorite part of the entire article is this --- The state and insurance companies say they want rates to be fair, but the bottom line for insurance companies will always be the bottom line.

"After it's all said and done, after the smoke clears, it's all about money," Henderson said.---


We all know this all to well I am afraid.
/sigh

The "fraud" in AZ referred to by the Allstate spokesperson ... was probably a reference to the unusually high number of repairs at full service car washes in Phoenix. Commisioned sales people man the entrances to the many car washes in AZ. Nicks and blemishes are pointed out to the insureds, the driver is told they can be repaired while the car is dried off, "at no cost to you, your insurance will pay". The sales person handles all the paperwork with the insured while someone else does the repair. Drivers in AZ have no deductible so the sale happens almost every time a car has any mark on the w/s. "Too bad" the Insurance co's caught on. The fraudulant repairs were a major problem in AZ.

Or would the insurance companies rather pay for a new windshield? We all know that if the insured does not repair the rock chip damage, it can crack. Jeeze we sure do save the insurance companies money by fixing those chippers, but is there any credit to the Glass industry for saving them money? Uhh NO. Sure the glass shops could push to talk the insured into replacing the windshield and charging even more money but a good glass shop would never do such a thing. Unless that is what the insurance industry or their TPA's would rather have us do.
We just need to get the word out to the consumers ourselves rather than waiting to have the insurance giants put their spin on it first.

Thanks XXX and CCC.


YYY.....you are just too funny. lol lol

I'd like to say more, but I better go check my fax. See if there are any more price quotes in there.

Yes....that was a pun.

I was aware or the car wash scheme going on in Phoenix area, I think there was any a TV news program where they interviewed the same lady from Allstate if I am not mistaken.

In many of those cases technicians(if you can call them that) were fixing every little blemish on the windshield of the undercover reporters vehicle. This after a professional repair technician had already inspected the windshield and found no damage that would need to be repaired. I think they specifically targeted one car wash repair company. Of course the owner simply blamed the tech and said he had been fired. "It is not company policy" was basically what he said as that is the new CYA term in the business world these days(I so love the modern "no accountability" world we now live in.)

If we(Mr. business owner) draft policies, but force or instruct employees to do it a different way, then we can simply blame a rogue employee when something goes wrong. Simply brilliant isn't it?

CCC Why do you use the word scheme? I think that marketing the customers at car washes brilliant. There are some bad apples out there but they exsist in every market. I can tell you that we have been in the car washes for years and many of my fellow glass shops have copied what we do. I dont blame the companys that go on TV and offer money back or free meals that how they market. The real scheme was the report and how one sided it was. Just another shot by the insurance companies. Mike Deborg the owner of clear view should of told them that in Arizona because of the extreme temps. windshields can break with any little imperfection. I dont know who the insurance companys used as there expert 19 years in the business but i would of challanged his point of view. I saw the windshield in the ford explorer and i would of fixed it or explain how it will spread and maybe cost the insured a new windshield.

Rex-

I certainly did not mean any offense by the word car wash "scheme". I also know several AGR companies that use car washes as a terrific way to meet customer needs and open up new potential customers. And they provide a very good service to the car wash and the customers they service.

I was refering to the TV news program that cleary shows a "scheme" in the pheonix area in particular. Where they prey upon unknowing customers and fix anything and everything. I believe one company charged over $200 for chip repairs on a particular invoice. I think any professional repair person would have recommended replacement in that case, if all the damage even existed, which it did not in many of the cases shown.

My apologies if it sounded like all "car wash" repairs were up to no good. As we all know, that is certainly NOT the case.

So you would fix even a small surface pit that has not cracked the windshield plate?? I have been doing windshield repair for 15 years now and have never seen this happen. We often have temperatures in the 100s in the summer, but nothing like you have in Arizona of course. Do surface pits really need to be fixed in Arizona? Not questioning your skills, I am just curious as I have never had to work in that high temp environment. Not sure I ever want to either. Stay cool !!!

The answer is no I wouldnt sell them on a chip repair for a surface pit. But I also used to own 4 car washes in Arizona and i can't count how many people go through the car wash in the summer and when the car comes out the windshield is broken. Hot glass and up then cold water and a windshield with a little imperfection and I do mean little = broken glass. I am not defending people who are unethical but fraud is a word thrown around by insurance companys way to often and it only hurts all of us. I won't back down from the Insurance companys and I will market how ever I wish. I just wish the Glass companys out their would stand up the next time there is a report because I would of explained the benefits of repairs. And from what I could tell the Ford in the report had more then a pit. CCC I have customers that are bothered by all the pits and have trouble seeing when the sun hits the windshield. I recomend the only way to fix the problem is to replace the glass if they feel that they are unsafe. Now am I commiting fraud or being unethical.

Will stay cool for a few months. But we like the 110 degree heat. Just imagine how hot that glass gets business goes way up.

It appears that the hot windshield and the cold water cause lots of broken windshields in Arizona. Then again maybe Safelite steers more chip repair and sell replacement using temp and no cost to the car owner as reason to upgrade. Who knows? I find it hard to believe it is like the Allstate agent made it sound. I have to have the owner talk to Safelite for a referral how can they not know what is being at the controled prices.

Just a question for YYY.

You said: "I happen to have Allstate insurance and they are the lowest price company I have been able to work with."

I'm curious, what did 'work with' mean?