I have seen good people who use to have smiles on their faces everyday do a complete 180. People who use to care. People who knew they had a future. Proud people who were genuinely happy to be working in this industry. And I know pro quality installers who have moved on, industry assets lost forever.

When would YOU say that you noticed a change in attitude of THE people (in the trenches of the auto glass industry)? What do you believe to be the biggest contributing factor affecting your company today? How has the tension levels affected your day to day operation as a individual? as a team? Do you beleive this problem is widespread and metastasizing? Possibly directing you to an uncertain but inevitable end? From the people you see everyday in the ppgs, pilkingtons, to the people who work in your outfit how would you rate their general overall happiness? Any comments appreciated.

Holy cow......you could start a riot with this. lol

This is like asking people to snap and go postal.

Of course........it's warranted.

I agree with your post completely.

I remember looking forward to going to work everyday, and felt blessed to be able to feel that way. I still really do like dealing with the public, but I WANT the enjoyment of my job back.

That's my driving force. I want what they took from me back: the simple pleasure of dealing with customers every day, earning a decent day's pay for a decent day's work, and going home tired, but satisified with all the customers we took care of that day being satisified with us.

I have said it before, I would NOT reccomend a young man to this trade after what it has become today it is not a good career for the future I wonder why so many are doing other things with their talents than sticking it out against big biz and the golf game of the insurance industry.

i don't think it is just us,,,,i spoke to a guy who installs satelite dishes the other day, the satelite company calls him and lets him install the dish, they pay him 15 bucks and 2 bucks per month for the programing, if the customer stops the service before the lease period they charge this installer 100 bucks.

another guy yesterday owns an appliance business, he has diversified into hot tubs and kitchen cabinets, he says you would be suprised to see how much more they sell in dollars than they did 10 or 15 years ago, but the profit is less than it was 10 or 15 years ago.

we are all being turned into serfs, by the big guys, i think it is happening in all industries, and i think we are all to stupid to do anything about it.

Your post hit a spot in me. I feel the same as you. After 36 years of helping people with a problem in their life and resolving to see them happy for the work I have done to their car, has been very satisfing. But the system today of steering and networks has stolen it from me. Customer choice has been replaced by insurance and network choice. We are no longer a true free market industry. With O&A or a faxed discounted price I am no longer able to have customers choose or referred to use my shop. Is that a free enterprise market. Quality workmanship is no longer a desire for most customers. The low bidder is rewarded. Would you go to the lowest bidder for your food, clothing, and shoes. I think not. These are items we use daily. Your car is also used daily. Glass installation is also a critical safety factor for you and it's occupants. Tires and brakes are important. Do you want to go to the low bidder for that job. I think not. Most consumers don't care. You bore them with facts on proper installations. It is sad that our industry has become belittled and berated. Yes, whe have shot ourselves in the foot. But, we must have went to the low bidder doctor because the whole leg has been amputated. Just my personal observation and leaning tall.

That's not happening to plumbers and electricians. They charge a service call, parts/labor extra. Take it or leave it for those guys/gals.

Old 85 and Mark 2,

I agree with both of you also, but with one difference to what you said, Old 85.

Most customers do care about quality, they only fold on quality when they are threatened with price.

The problem is, that they are told that they WILL get the quality AND the low price if they choose the network provider. THis is a hollow promise, and an empty guarantee, because the insurer isn't really guaranteeing any shops work, nor inspecting any glass installations to be sure they are done to high quality standards.

THAT is the root of the big lie, and the deceptive word tracks. Metryx, for example, is nothing more than LYNX stealing the credentials this industry has set for itself and making them LYNX's, and I still say AGRSS and NGA should be chastised for allowing it to happen. Those credentials have been gelded.

Customers DO care; but in effect, they are told that they don't have the right to choose outside the choices provided by the insurer. Big difference.

Also: I too miss the simple enjoyment of dealing with consumers daily without interference from my competitors posing as the insurance company or the "price police". I too WANT it BACK. Someday, soon, I hope, the scheme to defraud consumers and fatten insurer and network profits at the consumer's and shop's expense will be seen for what it is. Possibly sooner than we may think.

I must agree the industry isnt what it was 22 years ago when I started working in it, I myself will keep the shop, but have purchsed 2 servpro franchises which deal with insurance companies as well but they dont have a cheaper product to throw in my face made overseas and the customers dont shop price when they have a fire or flood damaged home, all I have to do is be fair and do a good job, just like the agr industry years ago, its to bad I really like autoglass and hope it turns around but its not a future anymore

I believe that the biggest change and unhappiness that has come to the Auto Glass Business began in part with all the chinese glass coming to the market as well as so many installs done at rock bottom pricing. Alot of this rock bottom pricing is presented by people who don't have any overhead and are happy bringing home $500.00 a week. Glass Shops have been forced to compete with this madness to try and survive and we see many shops struggling and closing in the process.

Hate to disargee but Safelite was selling glass cheap way before the china glass started to show up. Then after the china glass was here you had PPG and LOF dumping price to compete with the Safelite tier pricing. China glass was also used as an excuse but if I were PPG or LOF I would have gotten close to the aftermarket glass price and tried to sell qualityinstead of price. But now it is to late to sell quality because some of the china glass is better the PPG or LOF. Sad to say.

I agree with you on one point, Eyes Wide Open. Chinese glass enabled many shops to beat Safelite at their own game of lowballing, or at least compete with it.

Witchita closing may be a perfect example of this.

But, until somebody shows me crash tests to prove that Chinese glass, or safelite glass, or viracon, or any of the others, are the same.......not in my stores.

As far as I'm concerned, PPG is not OEM either since that chinese import investigation fiasco, either. And now PPG is coming in chinese?

anybody notice that car mfgs are losing lawsuits in injury/death cases while proving they EXCEED FMVSS, sometimes by triple? And still losing lawsuits? What does "we meet FMVSS" mean then?

Case law has superceded the Federal Safety Glazing Code, which governs architectural glazing. That means lawsuits say you have to EXCEED the federal codes.

Why is this different?

I would think that all manufactures would meet these standards or else they would not get a DOT #. They must comply with the DOT standards to recieve this number. Also FYG is making some part's for PPG as well as Viracon and two or three other chinese co's. And PPG just invested $200 millon on 3 float lines in an FYG plant. Besides the glass they crash test is not the same as the glass you would recieve.Pilkington has glass made everywhere some thiers some ut source. Believe me Mark i would like nothing than to have all OEM glass all of the time ' but I have forgotten what that is. lol

Please tell me the DOT standard requirements on crash testing, and also what OEM crash test standards are.

If we don't know what OEM are, and all DOT asks for is a lil' piece to pass a drop ball test along with a name and address for the mfg of the sample, what does this say?

If we install the same brand as the car mfg did, the monkey is on the glass mfgs back to make the same quality. THe shop has then excercised due diligence to return the car to OEM specs, especially considering many of those car mfgs are not forthcoming with those specs for us.

If on the other hand, we install the cheapest parts we can, to be as profitable as we can, but we have no proof of equivalence, then who has made the mistake in a lawsuit? The car mfg for poor design, or the shop that altered that design by changing the parts that the mfg originally crash tested with?

me thinx we will be holding the stinky liability bag with both hands, just like the shop that changed the rules in the architectural glass game. They followed the code to the letter.....but it cost them. Now, the handbooks say "you SHOULD upgrade the entire assembly" but the codes still say only the panel you are working on. Point is that case law superceded the rules, and it's happening in the courts to the car mfgs right now.

Streekyd's post fits in here to answer Mark 2 questions pretty well, I thought.

http://pub24.bravenet.com/forum/2036554146/show/509233

I believe Erica Eversman is a lawyer, vocal and working with the collision industry for some time.

Have you bought a PPG part latley.I got a DW1270 and it looks like my 3 year old grandchild cut the frame.Also put in DW1199 today,if frame wasnt low it looked like a 1 year old did it.Their quality control went past China.S******** has better qc/That says it all/

i got a 1217 ppg and the thing didn't fit between the doors. then we went out with a gaurdian 1217 and the thing must have been made at the same plant. it didn't fit either.

Lots of 1217's won't fit unless you do a full cut on the vehicle.

Good point Jay.

I have seen some major variance on 1217s regarding the doors. Some loose, some incredibly tight. And I have seen many that stress cracked due to installers doing close cuts.

To that end, I have never had one so tight that it caused a problem, and have been upgrading 1026s and 1199s to 1217s for many years. The difference in the edge moldings may take a bit of time to adapt to the doors (or vice/versa) but with a full cut, and quick closing of the doors (carefully) after installation, we have had no problems.

However, I have seen some doors so tight that they 'snag' the encapsulation, both on the fin of the 1026/1199 and on the notch of the bulb at the bottom of the sides of the 1217 when closing the doors the first time. Care on the first close of the doors is recommended to ensure clearance, then let the urethane bed down to accomodate the pressure from the doors. We have never had trouble with this method and have installed these in MANY trucks from pickups through tahoes and suburbans, up through the big trucks. Works on all of them, but we have always full cut.

I have never installed the 'X' brands, only LOF, Guardian, Crinamex, and a very few PPG. Have only seen one LOF many years ago with a bad curve across the top, and LOF promptly replaced it. No one could imagine how it made it out the door, it was so wrong, and none of the rest in the pallet were wrong, meaning it should have stuck out in the pallet like a different windshield all-together.

Hope this info was helpful PT and all.

first of all, short, or close cutting a windshield is not the correct way to replace a windshield, there is no way to get the correct hight and you are relying on the old adhesive to hold, and the new one to bond to it, how could you sleep at night. There is NO adhesive, glass, or car manufaucter that endorses this way to replace a windshield safely, the best way is to take it down to the pinchweld, it will cure faster and prepped right will adhere better

On that post.Hired a installer who worked with T""""""" He cuts with pipekifne low and only primes nick spots.I on the other had use scrapper to leave low urethane then clean pinchweld and prime all.Have noy hac only few problems in last 5 years.Can count on 1 hand.I say pinchweld gets contaminayed when swept or brushed.He says Im old school but I can sleep at night its in safe.I have replaced w/s I put in 7 years ago that are a strain to get out.I know their sealed.Only use good top line ureathane.Amyfeedback will help.

1217-

Another trick you can do, if you are dry setting these, is to dry set the windshield and close the front doors.

This will help shape or mould the edges on the 1217. Some of them are quite puffy or inflated and need a little shaping. Let it sit that way for 5 minutes (dry set) and that seems to help the edges relax a bit, and really helps in the final wet setting of the windshield. And as posted above, close the doors again right after the final set to insure proper placement (centering). Then screw down the encaps tabs on the cowl area. I do not "notch" the tabs and slip it over the old screws. This does not insure placement as many 1217s will not line up with old screw holes.

Very good info ccc.

The DW1217gby from PPG has never had a good fit. They even stopped making them for a little while and subbed out to Guardian. Now they are making again.And no Mark,I am not sure what the DOT test's are but I will see what I can find out. I believe it is the drop ball test but not sure what else. As far as who is liable if you put in an aftermarket or an oem glass it is you. But I believe it would have to be a release problem. Any w/s installed properly should not involve a liability problem.Also Thanks for the input.

EWO, you said:

"The DW1217gby from PPG has never had a good fit. They even stopped making them for a little while and subbed out to Guardian. Now they are making again.And no Mark,I am not sure what the DOT test's are but I will see what I can find out. I believe it is the drop ball test but not sure what else. As far as who is liable if you put in an aftermarket or an oem glass it is you. But I believe it would have to be a release problem. Any w/s installed properly should not involve a liability problem.Also Thanks for the input."


I think you will be surprised at what tests take place besides the drop ball test. (Or LACK there of)

As to who is liable, you are correct, save for the manufacturer of the part that manufactured that part for a specific purpose. (it was made to fit into a 2004 chevy, for example, therefore, one would expect it to perform IN that installation)

Finally to what you said about any windshield installed should not be a liability problem.....better tell that to Ford. The lawsuits are mounting, and Ford continues to prove that they have exceeded FMVSS for years, yet they continue to lose. And it's NOT just Ford.........

Yes Mark, but that is if it is installed correctly. If not then you have a problem. And your right it is not just Ford. I have seen factory installed glass that you can almost push out with your hands.

Also the crash test is for retention of the w/s not the w/s it's self.

And isn't Ford's problem with roll over and pillar strength which causes the roof to collapse? Not a glass problem.

EWO,

Yes, I meant to say liability even when glass is properly installed. sorry about that, missed it in the retype.

But this is not speaking of glass that falls out. This is speaking of multiple rollovers. The last one ford lost, there was a pic of the vehicle that had rolled five times after a motor home forced it off the interstate, driver killed. Roof looked to be down about six inches. IMHO, the performance was incredible, especially after five rolls. Nevertheless, ford lost, even though they proved they exceeded FMVSS.

As to retention only, I believe that intrusion is in there too, but it does not matter.

If an installer installs a part that has no crash testing to prove equivalence to OEM, you have just changed the saftey systems of the vehicle, and not made a peep to the customer about those changes. Further, many state PROUDLY that they meed all FMVSS when asked. Proudly state they meet a 35 year old standard that was written before we had structurally installed windsheilds, before we had airbags bouncing off them, before any of these lawsuits existed against car mfgs that have proven in court that they exceed the FMVSS by as much as triple, but still lose.

Where, tell me, does that leave the installer that signs things like the new O/A for SF, or Metryx, or any of these things that have the installer holding the liability bag for quality, and absolving the insurer completely?

If we were talking about OEM vs Non OEM airbags here, we wouldn't be having this discussion, now would we?

Think about it, and think about where cheap parts MAY be leading in a death and injury lawsuit. Better yet, do you think the glass mfg will stand with you when you do end up in court? Does anyone have their number in China so we can ask if they will attend? Sure.....right.....

But this is all ok....we all have insurance, right? Better check to see if you are covered for negligent acts, because being a repair professional and changing the saftey systems of someone's car and possibly diminishing the performance of those safety systems would most certainly be deemed negligent, and NOT covered in the policy, at least most I have read.