Copied from my previous post:

We use 2 man sets as well on almost every job, except for instance some gasket applications (dw848). Even dw943 which many would consider a small part.

We do this for a lot of reasons, but the main one is this, and I challenge any of you to honestly answer this with a YES...

Can any of you tell me, using a single man to set a windshield even with gravity stops, that you can install the windshield without twisting, sliding, or in some way moving the bead of urethane when setting the windshield.?

I have talked to many that have set glass by themselves in the past, and not one of them can honsetly tell me they can do it with absolute certainty that they are not moving the bead of urethane in the process. And most admit to me they do move it some, they have to, it is 'impossible' not to, in their words.

I am not here to criticize those who say they can. In fact I would love to see how you do it as I would like to pass your technique on to our installers if it truly works.

But I have yet to see one done that is not moved or twisted when set with one man. Which in our minds compromises the safety of the customer and potentially increases our warranty rate and liability.

DRY SET THE W/S, MARK WITH MASKING TAPE FOR GUIDES TO CENTER W/S WHEN SETTING. CUT TAPE SO ONE SIDE IS ON GLASS THE OTHER ON BODY. PREP W/S AND PINCH WELD APPLY THANE ON THE GLASS USING A BATTERY CAULKING GUN, NOW SET THE GLASS USING SUCTION CUPS. AS YOU SET THE GLASS STAY IN LINE WITH THE TAPE AND YOU HAVE A PERFECT ONE MAN SET WITHOUT SLIDING THE THANE.
THIS INSTALL STYLE DOES WORK, BUT THERE IS STILL SOME TWO MAN SETS THAT ARE NECESSARY.
SO THE ANSWER IS YES YOU CAN INSTALL MOST W/S WITH OUT SLIDING THE THANE

so you set both sides at the same time?

Or set on side and then the other?

CCC makes a good point.

I watched a VERY well respected installer install a 1217 at a trade show a few years back. He specifically took time to mention CCC's points about "smudging" the bead as you go down.

Then I watched him set the glass, by himself, stand it on the center wiper arbor, and lay it down in, working the corners past the fenders carefully as he went.

I stood there and wondered how the sides, and bottom around the corners, weren't "smudged" as he did so.

Hey, how about four man sets? We did one (we do a lot of these) Friday. Two men lift a 5' X 5.5' wrap around windshield up over their heads to two more men waiting about 8 feet off the ground. They then lower this monster into a 6 inch wide slot between the opening and the hood down about 2 feet back to the two on the ground who have moved into position to catch it, then the top two men guide the top and the bottom two men guide the bottom. The final installed position of the glass is leaning out at the top about a foot or so.

We make average of $350+ depending on the complexity of the surrounding hardware, which varies. Funny, nobody else seems to want to do these puppies.

Not that these are in NAGS realm, but I wonder how they would handle those!

I still remember doing those middle 80's firebird/camero backlites. Those were mosters. Huge, heavy, had a wing that bolted to it, as well as 2 huge hydraulics to bolt into it.

Used to take at least 3 of us, and that was with us constantly switching places with one guy at the end holding it in place to get the hydraulics bolted to it.

What we get ourselves into LOL :)

SETTING IT INTO THE OPENING NOT AT AN ANGLE. IF YOU DO SET LEFT OR RIGHT SIDE DOWN FRIST AS LONG AS YOU ARE IN LINE WITH YOUR TAPE MARKS YOU ARE NOT ROLLING THE THANE. HARD TO MASTER BUT WHEN YOU DO IT IS FAR MORE SUPERIOR THAN THANING THE PINCH WELD. THIS INSTALLATION TECHNIQUE WAS INTERDUCED TO US BUY A TRAINER FROM WINDSHIELDS AMERICA BACK IN 1995

Yes it can be accomplished.And the right way.All it takes is a good eye to see the old mldg lines,a steady arm,and a little tape to help alignment.Also helps to use setting blocks with another block along the bottom to enable you to slide (if necessary) the w/s without touching the urethane.The only time i have the luxury of having another set of hands are the ones in the shop that my wife helps me with.I don't do motor homes,but i do a lot of freightliners,internationals,vans etc.Granted this is definately not for any greenhorns.It takes some getting used to.And yes you do get the occasional goof.(but don't we all at one point or another)?I wish i did'nt have to install by my lonesome but i have no choice in the matter.(until i win the powerball)

I am not doubting you at all here,but I still do not understand how that can be done with one man and NOT move the glass on the urethane?

We shoot the glass as well, and pre-set windshield using tape as alignment guides as you do. Maybe I am confused, but how do you set the glass from the side of the car,in the opening without moving it on the bead at all . I have never seen this done from the side of the car without moving the glass after contacting the urethane.

Maybe I will just have to fly out and visit you :)

CCC ANYTIME, YOU ARE WELCOME, IF I CAN ROUND UP VIDEO CAMERA I WILL FLIM THE SET FOR YOU AND MAIL IT OUT. LET YOU KNOW LATER IF I CAN GET A CAMERA

The big trick is in the setting blocks.If the car does'nt have any use whatever style block you might have available attach it to the car by means of available screw or clip holes.On the body put another block (that is below urethane highth)This is the block you use as a slide aid.It doesn't move on you because the other block catches the outer edge and helps to hold it in place.Then with suction cups placed in the right positions you place the glass on the opposite side block almost a 90 degree angle slide the glass about 3 inches +/- to fender re-angle the glass to just fit under fender ,double check tape and old marks on drivers pillar post and set into place.Not a fool-proof way, but it works for me.If there is a will; there has got to be a way.Also a little Mcgyverism 14 + 124 doesn't hurt either.I'm almost 50 now and believe me if there is an easy way i'll find it and try it.A little ingenuity and anyone can do anything.I've replaced alone for so long that sometimes i find it difficult to install with another person,and like-wise i'm sure,with two people for awhile it would seem rather stupid to install a w/s alone.However some of us don't have any help or employees.In fact i haven't had health insurance (zippo) for the last 14 years.Competition around here is mighty saturated and cash prices are more on the side of auto glass being a hobby.

I set for years by myself, have gone to 2 person sets, will not go back to 1 man installs for all the tea in china! I agree with ccc I do not believe it's possible to not slide the thane. I know some installers always or most always lay the thane on the glass, I don't except certain w/s that you can't get to the pinchweld. 1 slip and you will be getting thane where you don't want it, headliners, a-pillars,etc. As for set blocks, I've watched the mobile 1 man'ers drill into firewalls to set the blocks and have searched out leaks to discover why customers get wet floors to find not a leaky w/s but some hack who drilled a screw into a place where when he took out his temp block he left a good size hole for water to run in on the floor, so I do not like to see temp blocks for 1 man wonders. 2 man sets are always better in the long run!!! with exceptions to every rule, many older gasket jobs. 2 people working properly together can do twice as much work in half the time, you just have to get them to work together for a while until they think alike, and 2 heads are better than 1 any day. what 1 may forget the other can cover. I just see to many advantages with 2 person sets!

I know the one man SET can and is done successfully. The proof, their is an estimated 11 million w/s being installed a year. Of that number how many failures are do to urethane missing the glass do we have each year? Can you provide me with the amount of criminal or civil suits we have each year naming that as a cause?
I agree,their is a time when two men are needed to set the glass NOT INSTALL ONE.

Nowhere did i say drill a hole.I use the holes that are already there holding down the cowl.I really wish i could use two men,i can't,so i adjust .

I did not say that you did,, I said I have seen ALOT of guys do it and have had to fix what they did ,,I DID NOT SAY ,,,YOU ,,,,,Karl,,,sorry just stating what I have seen.

We seem to be losing the point I can do a one man set even when too big but it takes time to set up and is risky I am past 60 but sometimes I have to make do. I also won't even try in the field. A slip and its the glass or lots of clean up or both. The labor rate is wrong and so is the NAGS list so let us try to be helpful to each other to make it better. p.s. I had to laugh at the post of 30min. is what it takes. I average 3 hrs, to do it right.

I set from the door jam? any of you familiar with this technique?

thnx elron I would definately be interested in seeing this done.

I was not trying to start an issue here, but I was honestly trying to answer a question I have had for many years based on all the urethane I seen (when removing an old windshield) that was smeared, twisted, etc. that I assumed was from a single installer trying to reach over a fender and set a windshield him/her self.

And based on the installers I have spoken with, some friends and some fellow installers I have met at trade shows, not one could tell me they do not move the bead a little when setting a windshield alone.

I appreciate everyone's input on this.

BTW elron-

Shhhhhh on the video thing. I was trying to get a free vacation from work to come see your "advanced setting technique". The boss almost fell for it. :)


Just kidding everyone. He is to sharp for that.

Stay busy.

LB- I believe your agrument is flawed. First off, as Ralph Nader's press release states below, there are no current studies or agencies tracking adhesion failures in aftermarket windshield replacements.

Nader states "Accurate estimates of injuries due to deficient windshield installation are unavailable from NHTSA due to the highly specific nature of this collected data. Standard police reports do not account for windshield mounting as a cause of injury."

And in speaking with local authorities they admit the same. Most never even think of checking to see if the windshield retention has failed. Yet several could vividly recall several accidents in recents years that clearly would have been a case of such.

We are currently broadening our CE class courses to include local and state police forces to help them understand what to look for and what FMVSS applies to OE and aftermarket installations.

Just because there is no current record or lawsuits (which there are) reguarding retention failures does not mean it is not a problem.

I am sure many of us have brought a potential "leaking" windshield into our facilities only to be able to easily push the windshield out with our finger tips. Or in many cases, have seen evidence that the leak has grown over time as the urethane slowly seperated from the glass for various reasons.

Now some will argue our burden under the law is simply to "not render a safety device inoperable". That as long as 75% of the windshield remains intact in a rollover we are doing are jobs. But I say we are not. That we should have a much higher standard than the bare minimum the government requires of us.

And this is why gentleman such as Ralph Nader and organizations like AGRSS are so important to the public at large.

I have said this before, but remember YOU NEVER KNOW WHO INSTALLED THE WINDSHIELD THAT SOMEONE YOU KNOW OR LOVE WILL BE DRIVING BEHIND. That is why this all matters and is of great importance.

CCC, great post.

LB, to CCC's point, I have several hundred documented where we saved someone from the potential of litigation, by cleaning up someone's mess.

Respectfully, it's not about the litigation, it's about the life (lives) we're supposed to be saving.

I have seen 1 man sets for years ,there are ways.I have used slide pvc to line w/s then when in place lower.Most older w/s can be set by 1 man.Newer larger and more complicated can not.

One poster indicated that they use two men for all sets. Makes me wonder--
-Do 2 men sets adversly impact your labor costs?
-Can the two men do the job in 1/2 the indicated NAGS labor time? Or,
-Must you double the posted labor time?
-Doesn't NAGS labor take two men sets into account on the larger applications?

hal,

we have always used 2 people to set w/s for as long as i have been around, it is just the way i learned to do it. it definitely eats into labor costs, it is definitely worth the extra cost, everything gets double checked and i can sleep at night.

the prime example was in 1995 or 96 when dodge came out with their new body stile pickup, we did a ton of 1176's because the w/s had to be centered almost perfectly or they would stress crack. dodge recuded the width of that w/s two different times, but that is just an example.

fit and having the w/s centered is critically important, and i have seen the results of some one man sets. (not crowing on people who do it, but i sure don't approve of it in my shop).

i live in fear of a lawsuit from adhesive failure, so i take every precaution, including using more expensive urethanes than i could probably get by with.

i'm not a number cruncher, i don't like playing the odds, so i will error on the side of caution. i guess if i was a number cruncher, i would figure that the average person only keeps a car 3 or 4 years and play the odds, doing everything as cheap as possible, but then i might have a hard time sleeping.

I am with Joe! As a mother, grandmother and just plain member of the human race, if it is safer to do something a certian way, I am going to do it that way! JMHO

Of course 2man sets affect my labor costs. But, I dont consider it a choice. ANY customer comeback for ANY reason is a failure in my opinion. These guys are fooling themselves if they say they can provide the same quality with a one-man set. Will it be a decent job? In the majority of cases it probably is, but it is not the best possible quality that we strive for. NAGS does not account for quality installation, so they do not compensate accordingly. While all shops who employ the single man installs are not necessarily doing things wrong, you can bet if a shop uses two techs per install they are not cutting corners in other places either.

That's exactly what Hal wants to hear, that we will not sacrifice quality no matter what.

The insurer dictates the price, but assumes no liability for the installation.

Go ahead Hal, tell me I'm wrong. If you speak of the insurer warranty again, I'm going to ask you to post a copy of it again, which you didn't last time.

As long as there are those of us out there that won't sacrifice quality, no matter our bottom line, for the safety of our customers, the network system will stand.

How bad is that, that people must die to show the system has failed? If shops go out of business, it's our fault, if people die, it's our fault. If we're profitable, well, that's the insurer's fault, and they don't want the stockholders to know that. Gotta keep those loss ratios at record low levels, right Hal?

HAL-

As most of our work is performed indoors, rarely mobile, you may be misunderstanding how a 2 man set affects our company.

We are talking about SETTING the windshield. Because we have 3 techs working in the shop we can be doing other work, and still help the primamry installer SET the windshield in most cases in a few minutes time.

There are some cases, and I think NAGS flags most of those, where it is best to have 2 men on the entire job. Some of these have large cowlings, or difficult to remove cowlings, etc.

But NAGS is right in re-evalutating some of the parts and checking if more 2 man install flags are necessary in their database. Parts have changed alot over the last few years, and like many have said, I am almost certain no one at NAGS installs windshields on a regular basis.

Like I said, 90% of our work in performed INSIDE. Strictly mobile companies may be very different however.

I think this is one reason why some of the larger mobile companies made sure they were part of AGRSS/AGRSS council, to make sure something like 2 man installs was NOT adopted as part of the AGRSS standard. It would be interesting to see what types of items were NOT included in the standard. I am sure some were for very good reasons, and some were for outside motivations.

I am not blaming anyone that fought to keep certain requirements out of the standard as the AGRSS council has a clear mission statement of it's own in place. It had to create a standard for consumer safety and at the same time provide that it be able to be implemented by most agr companies.

HAL-

I still find it funny that the ins. co. talk so much and refer so much to NAGS data, and yet not one ins. company I know accepts all of the NAGS data.

Not one ins. co. pays full NAGS list plus labor with no discount. Most do not recognize that NAGS does not price all parts, but leaves 'R' parts out in the wind for all of us to haggle over, and then tries to say "NAGS says there are no more 'R' parts" not understanding that NAGS simply chosing to not price them does not mean they do not exist.

If NAGS is so great then why do most companies not trust it? Why does every ins. co. want a discount off NAGS list? Why do some not trust the labor times or the new trap being laid out for agr companies "if 2 men are required it will take you less time". Why, if NAGS is such a great guide for the ins. industry do you guys play with it, try to manipulate it, etc.?

I am really interested in your answer HAL. You push for acurate data and an acurate benchmark (which has only killed agr shop profits since 1999 while the insurance industry has never been more profitable)and yet everytime NAGS revises their data, you still want to adjust it further? Where does it end?

It ends when we all in the agr industry REFUSE to use NAGS data. We start billing based on real costs, not the made up (or rather undisclosed formula, sorry) someone in San Diego cooked up who doesn't even install windshields on a daily basis nor run an agr company.

Keep smilin HAL. Not attacking you personally, but I really want to know how you guys think and what your reasoning is on NAGS data.

What about 2 men windshields that require 2 men to cut it out,just not setting it?I have even seen small windshield that fall apart at the cowl area and even reqire 2 men to fold the windshield out and a third to cut it....to keep from damaging the vehicle.

Perfect example.

Or how about the ones NAGS list as 2.1 hours, and yet the last installer used a urethane bead 3" wide and even your extrator can't cut it out without busting the windshield into pieces? NAGS does not take into account the extra work any of us have to do when the previous installation was improper. And I won't even start on the corrosion issue.

If my ins. co. advised me to go somewhere and "guaranteed" it if I went to "their" choice, and 6 months later I had rust from untreated scrathes from that installation, I would be most upset and trust me I would not be the one paying to fix it properly. And something tells me HAL wouldn't either if it was his personal car.

I have been using a nifty tool called "The Lil Buddy".Is a 2 cup device with a slide arm.Does wonders for a single man to do a 2 man set.No twisting or dragging of the thane.

ccc states-
I still find it funny that the ins. co. talk so much and refer so much to NAGS data, and yet not one ins. company I know accepts all of the NAGS data.
Response-
We use the NAGS part number, suggested labor times, and suggested retail.

ccc states-
Not one ins. co. pays full NAGS list plus labor with no discount. Most do not recognize that NAGS does not price all parts, but leaves 'R' parts out in the wind for all of us to haggle over, and then tries to say "NAGS says there are no more 'R' parts" not understanding that NAGS simply chosing to not price them does not mean they do not exist.
Response-
Not an accurate statement. I allow 100% of NAGS in some market areas, and I suspect other carriers to as well. We recognize that some net priced parts will be required--and we allow appropriate markups when the NAGS list in not applicable.

ccc states-
If NAGS is so great then why do most companies not trust it? Why does every ins. co. want a discount off NAGS list? Why do some not trust the labor times or the new trap being laid out for agr companies "if 2 men are required it will take you less time". Why, if NAGS is such a great guide for the ins. industry do you guys play with it, try to manipulate it, etc.?
Response-
My company has confidence in NAGS data, but we use it at guide rather than a bible.

ccc states-
I am really interested in your answer HAL. You push for acurate data and an acurate benchmark (which has only killed agr shop profits since 1999 while the insurance industry has never been more profitable)and yet everytime NAGS revises their data, you still want to adjust it further? Where does it end?
response-
We adopted the NAGS rebalance cconcept and attempted to do a revenue neutral conversion on our pricing. If it was revenue neutral--shop's profit would remain constant.

You mention insurance company profits. My average cost per claim has remained constant for the last few years. Our profits come from other areas--not short paying glass claims. Glass is not a source of 'windfall' insurance profits.

ccc states-
It ends when we all in the agr industry REFUSE to use NAGS data. We start billing based on real costs, not the made up (or rather undisclosed formula, sorry) someone in San Diego cooked up who doesn't even install windshields on a daily basis nor run an agr company.

Response-
I agree it makes sense to bill based on real costs! You should be permitted a fair mark up for goods and services provided. A realistic list price and honest labor allowances are a 'step' in the right direction for both of us.

ccc states-
Keep smilin HAL. Not attacking you personally, but I really want to know how you guys think and what your reasoning is on NAGS data.
Response-
Certainly no offense taken. I hope my responses answer some questions. We can learn from each other-if we listen. This can help us work effectively together.

Best wishes

When are we going to be "allowed" by the insurance industry to make a fair profit and do the work the right way every time withought having to use inferior quality glass to make ends meet ?
The Insurance industry mandates we warranty the whole install yet steers work to its favorites using the wording that the non networks shop's warranty wont apply if theres any trouble .Glass should be a profitable business for us who have put 10+ years in the trade not some liability game with lowering prices very time NAGS or some insurer designs another great "program" for us to lower the bar again .
Safety NEVER was a concern to the insurance industry because they contractulary waive off and allow vehicles to not be put pack in pre repair condition again and again .

Hal, Can you share your take on the fundamental differences between the collision DRP programs and the glass networks? I have heard that the majority of the collision centers have more leverage in negotiating pricing and the emphasis is on service and policyholder satisfaction.

Yes, I agree with M, please do tell us Hal.

And offer us any of your insight why one of the bigger DRP shop chains in CA went belly up, or why one of the other biggest DRP shop chains in CA was investigated for defrauding consumers, with some locations shut down for a period as sanctions, along with fines paid and consumers reimbursed.

RJ,

Please send me the web site info on the LIL BUDDY or any info that is availible on the purchase of this system for one man set for windshields.

thank you,
Raheem

One man sets are bad. Mobile installation is bad, especially in winter. We created our own monster with this mobile install stuff, time to reign the monster in. Fact is, with the complexity of modern windshields, and it's only going to get worse, people need to start bringing them to a local shop. They can't, because they're too busy or on the road all the time? Boo-hoo, watcha gonna do when you need brakes or a transmission. As far as people saying that customers just won't have it done if they have to bring it in, here's where we need to get state legislators involved. Every state should have a yearly vehicle inspection, that would force consumers to bring their cars in before inspection. As far as poorer people that may not be able to afford a windshield replacement, and hence this would discriminate against, what about other stuff on their cars that doesn't pass muster in states with inspections? They have to pay for that. I live in a state that does not mandate inspections, and frankly think we should. I can't stand cars approaching me at night with one headlight, passing with turn signals that don't work, side mirrors hanging from their cables. Everyone wants to cry and put up a cross when someone with a car like this gets in an accident, but shouldn't we try to be making our roads safer from vehicles like that? I sure don't want to be a cross on the side of the road because someone is legally allowed to drive an unsafe vehicle and plows me into a ditch and says they didn't see me because their side mirror busted off while backing out of the garage.

I like you RON. I wouldn't be so bad at throwin w/s's in vehicles if I had someone help me set 1319's, 1265's, 1505's and the like. especially when its 10 deg out and Im out in the driveway it feels like 10 below on a frozen windswept tundra. All I think about is how fast I can toss her in. forget priming. I can't even feel my fingers. I did a old skool civic the other day in these very conditions and I didn't even bother with the clip in side mldings and top press in. I just threw a nice 3/4 in wide flexi on it and laid a nice 2 inch high bead of 418HV and stuffed it under the cowel. hope she don't leak.

Does anyone have the info on the lil buddy? i could really use the help!

I tried it for a few months. it's a horrible product. the cups that hold to the glass are flat glaziers cups and do not hold to curved glass. waste of money. space. time. enegry. set it right with two people

Right now i am a one man operation with no help. i would still like to look in to it. were can i find it, or what company make's it and is it on the web.

Raheem, I'm looking into the info on the lil buddy for you. All I have is A kinda how to disk. The tool is still getting the kinks worked out of it, But, Does work great. No stress on the back what so ever. Once I get the info I will gladly forward to you.

RJ,
THANK'S I'LL BE LOOKING FOR THAT INFORMATION. HAVE A GREAT HOLIDAY.

RAHEEM

he sells them on ebay. NO LIE. check it out under auto glass tools

Haven't seen 1 on ebay yet, Anyways. Raheem, The fellow that designed the tool is Kent Mayhugh 1-800-924-1252 or email at lilbuddy@wi.rr.com Im sure he will be more than happy to send you any info you'd like.I have actually been using it for a few months on certain vehicles and it works like a charm..So good luck and I hope this helps.

Ron

RON,

THANK'S AGAIN FOR THE INFORMATION. I'M GOING TO CHECK IT OUT. I'LL LET YOU KNOW HOW IT WORKS OUT FOR ME. TALK WITH YOU VARY SOON!

THANKS,
RAHEEM