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Timing issue or something else causing engine to push the flywheel the wrong way

Hi, thanks for reading this. I have run into a different issue once I changed my ignition system. (to recap: Points, distributor cap, rotor, coil and condenser were all replaced)
When I started the car, I did get it to start a couple of times, but it was running weird. That's the best I can describe it.
Most of the time when I try to start it, it seems to ignite and wants to throw the flywheel in the opposite direction it is supposed to go. (You can hear it fighting the starter when it catches)
I'm not sure what I have done to it to make it want to do this.
So I drew a diagram showing the setup, which I double checked today.

TOP DEAD CENTER ON 1
When we put back the timing chain, we made sure that we marked the flywheel (it's supposed to be stamped but I never found a mark on it)
We marked top dead so we would know where to line it up. Today I double checked that in two ways.
I removed the valve cover and hand rotated the engine until the second tappet from the front had clearance between the stem and the lifter.
I also double checked using a balloon, I just wanted to make sure it was on the compression stroke. When the balloon filled with air on the up stroke I moved it until it was right at the point between filling and deflating.
While it was in this position, (reading the service manual) I took off the distributor and put it back so that the rotor was pointing at (not quite) a 45 degree angle toward the engine as shown in the illustration. I put the distributor cap on with that metal connector on the cap that the # 1 spark plug wire goes into - being right over top of the rotor. (So while the engine is at top dead center on the compression cycle, the rotor is pointing to the #1 spark plug. I then used the wiring diagram to run the wires from the other plugs as shown in my drawing.
I have tried twisting the cap a little each way but I still seem to be having this issue.
Any ideas?

Thanks.

Where Are You From? Langley BC

Do You own a car built by Durant? Durant M2 1928

Re: Timing issue or something else causing engine to push the flywheel the wrong way

Hi Gerald.....

Is it possible you are 180 degrees out of time?

Frank ---

Where Are You From? Hookstown Pennsylvania

Do You own a car built by Durant? a few

Re: Timing issue or something else causing engine to push the flywheel the wrong way

Hi Gerald,

When #4 cylinder exhaust valve (last lifter)just closes and simuntaniously #4 cylinder intake valve(next to last lifter) just starts to crack open, then #1 piston should be at top dead center compression stroke, if not then your valve timing would not be correct...I believe that you can see the top of the piston on a W-5 through the spark plug hole looking at an angle with a flashlight (when piston is up), if not I have bent a wire with an offset as well as a large loop so the wire cannot drop into the cylinder and you can slowly turn the engine to verify T.D.C....Anyway, when you have engine on top dead center, like you say, your rotor should be looking at #1 on cap but also know that the contact points should also be just cracking (rotate dist. counterclockwise until points just crack)....

Anyway, hope this hasent caused more confusion.

Where Are You From? Leavenworth, WA / Yuma, AZ

Do You own a car built by Durant? Yep

Re: Timing issue or something else causing engine to push the flywheel the wrong way

Hi Frank,
I'm not sure what 180 degrees out of tune is exactly but I am going to describe in my next post exactly how the timing is setup.
Thanks!

Where Are You From? Langley BC

Do You own a car built by Durant? Durant M2 1928

Re: Timing issue or something else causing engine to push the flywheel the wrong way

I am going mostly by the setup technique used in the service manual for durants, and what I have found online. I will describe exactly how I found TDC

I put a balloon on a piece of tubing, and stuck that snuggly in the hole for #1 Sparkplug.

I hand rotated the engine until the balloon started to fill. (This was dramatic so I assume the air was compressing on #1. I stopped it when it got to the point the balloon stopped filling and began deflating and kept it right between the two.

Earlier when the timing had been done, we put a mark on the flywheel to check against when we put the timing back to make sure it was in the same position. I went to take a look at that mark and it was lining up as it had originally before the timing was touched, so I thought it was a good sign. (It was now at the top of a compression stroke and the flywheel was in exactly the same position it had been before the timing had been touched.)

Next I did what the manual said to do. I had the valve cover off, and I checked the valve tappet that was second one from the radiator. It said that it should have clearance between the lifter and stem. Which it did.

It feels to me like that should mean this is in the correct position. The #1 is at the top of the compression stroke when it's supposed to ignite and push the piston down. The Rotor is pointing to the sparkplug wire that goes to number one at this point. I'm not sure what I am missing.

I'm not sure what you mean by the contact points should just be cracking. Unfortunately I don't have a test lamp, or even the materials at the moment to create one from a light bulb.
In the diagram, it shows the distributor being twisted clockwise to retard and counter clockwise to advance. Should I start from a more retarded position or advanced? Should the rotor just barely hitting the contact on the distributor when the engine is in top dead center, or should it be already just a little bit past? or should it just be right in the center of the contact point.

I hope that all made sense. :) thanks again.

Where Are You From? Langley BC

Do You own a car built by Durant? Durant M2 1928

Re: Timing issue or something else causing engine to push the flywheel the wrong way

I keep wondering if it's the engine trying to go the wrong direction, or when it fires somehow it's catching on the starter and stopping. Not sure that's possible.
Still trying to work through this one.

I mean the starter is pushing it in one direction to start. If I am following the bendix rotation correctly, I think it's throwing the flywheel in a counterclockwise direction. Does that sound right? The sound it makes is as if it is grinding against the starter the moment it fires, but it doesn't start after it fires.
(sometimes it does, and it doesn't run as smoothly. but the majority of the time it balks when starting.)

Where Are You From? Langley BC

Do You own a car built by Durant? Durant M2 1928

Re: Timing issue or something else causing engine to push the flywheel the wrong way

Gerald,

You are probably getting #1 piston on top dead center with the mark you placed on the flywheel and whatever method that you use to verify the mark....BUT just because that you have clearance on #1 intake does not mean that your camshaft is in time with your crankshaft...If you remove your back valve cover and turn engine by hand in the direction of rotation and watch the lifter action on #4 cylinder as I described above, at the exact moment that exhaust lifter stops moving down and intake simontainusly starts moving up that is the position that the camshaft must be in when when #1 (and #4) pistons are at top center (or when your flywheel timing mark is on) they must happen at the same time or your camshaft is out of time.

180 degrees out is when you set your IGN timing on the exhaust stroke or one complete reveulition off.

Yes, turning your dist. clockwise retards the spark and counterclockwise advances your timing....But for initialy setting the IGN timing I position the dist. rotor to look at #1 on cap with engine on T.D.C. and turn dist a fair amount clockwise then turn dist slowly back counterclockwise until you can just see the points start to "crack or open", also verify that the rotor is still looking at #1 position.

I should have mentioned that it sounds like your dist. is too far advanced if the engine is kicking against the starter (firing before T.D.C.)

Where Are You From? Leavenworth, WA / Yuma, AZ

Do You own a car built by Durant? Yep

Re: Timing issue or something else causing engine to push the flywheel the wrong way

Gerald,

We had quite a thread going some time back that could be helpful...It may be that with your method of checking the valve timing using the valve position on #1 cylinder is that it needs to be done with #1 piston at T.D.C. on its exhaust stroke rather then the compression stroke....Anyway, use the key word "performance problem w-5" and especially "performance problem solved" by Carl....Good Info.

Where Are You From? Leavenworth, WA / Yuma, AZ

Do You own a car built by Durant? Yep

Re: Timing issue or something else causing engine to push the flywheel the wrong way

Thank you for all the information Bill,

I am going to check what you mentioned here when we get a little bit of sun. I am heading out for a week, so it might be a little while before I get back to the forums.
I had a very little time to look at the distributor today as well as the starter.

The pinion on the starter has been banged up a bit, it looks okay, but it definitely scraped against the flywheel.

I wanted to see when the sparkplugs were firing, I don't have a test lamp, so I took the plugs out and grounded #1 against the body. It looks like #1 is firing when it's nearing the bottom of the power stroke rather than the top of the compression stroke. Could this have anything to do with the backwards kick?

Where Are You From? Langley BC

Do You own a car built by Durant? Durant M2 1928

Re: Timing issue or something else causing engine to push the flywheel the wrong way

You have a lot going on there. Have you had the distributor out or someone before you had it out and it's not in the right place? An engine not timed correctly certainly can be a stubborn cuss and will show hissy fits and kicks.

Where Are You From? Oro, Ontario, Canada

Do You own a car built by Durant? Yes

Re: Timing issue or something else causing engine to push the flywheel the wrong way

Prior to this issue, I hadn't had the distributor out. It really started happening once I put on the new cap and rotor. It's quite possible though I rotated the cap it bit by accident. Yesterday however I did remove it to try and align it properly. Before that it did look like it had been moved. The clamps were scraping awkwardly up against the side of the generator and the angle of the rotor was all backward. I used the manual to put it back in.
It asked you to rotate the engine to top dead center on one, then line up the rotor with #1 sparkplug and place it back in so the rotor is at a 45 degree angle toward the engine.
Hopefully that has the position right. Before I moved it, it was at a 45 angle away from the engine (But it was still having exactly the same issue.) Eventually I would want it to be the right way around. If I ever get a spark advance rig to hook up to it I would need the clamps on the side they are on now. I think.

Where Are You From? Langley BC

Do You own a car built by Durant? Durant M2

 

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