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1930 Durant/Star Engine Maybe In Quebec??

Denis Rouleau, in Quebec, is trying to ID a smaller green 4cyl with what looks like a very light transmission; tag's gone, but cast into engine is:
6-28-30 (day may be off, forgot to write it down)
W8A 603 and an overlaid CL (one letter over the other) on head
W8A 605A and the CL on the block
Could this be the Cont'l W5 or W8 used in the Durant and/or the Star (I just have the W5 in the Star, but my info's incomplete),
Feel free to post any reply to Denis' threads on smokstak ("1930 Truck Engine?" in the car-truck engine forum there, or "W8A 605A Engine" in the Antique Gas Engine forum there).
Any comments appreciated! Many thxx!! Bud Tierney

Where Are You From? Portland OR

Do You own a car built by Durant? no

Re: 1930 Durant/Star Engine Maybe In Quebec??

Can't blow up the pics on the site unless you are a member. I see Denis lives across the river from Ottawa and it was a rush to id this motor 2004 he picked up 2003. I see your postings also Bud 2004. Guess rush and moving it didn't happen, grin. Seems there was an id tag but taking solvent removed the info and just left rivet's or tag itself was gone.

Just put W8A 603 and W8A 605 and both postings show up on Google search, with different pics / info in each.
http://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?p=940118
http://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?p=939558

With vertical mounted oil canister over generator this W8 appears to be out of a April 1930 - April 1931 407 Durant made Leaside. Oakland also made a few 407's but with engine being here I assume Toronto.

You can look in Special Interest in this site about the 407.

My 22AA engine also has the C L casting and bigger M above that and 1 to side of the M. No clue what that means if anything.

If you or Denis want to see info on the 407 here's another spot by our deceased member .. http://www.durantcars.com/catalogs/durant/index.shtml just go to 407 and click 1930 or 31. Or our Photos section under Durant and 1930.

Where Are You From? Ottawa Ont

Do You own a car built by Durant? Dominion built 1932 614 Sedan

Re: 1930 Durant/Star Engine Maybe In Quebec??

Norm: Many thxx for quick reply--will pass your fon to Denis; don't know if engine/trans available for sale or not. Bud

Where Are You From? Portland OR

Do You own a car built by Durant? no

Re: 1930 Durant/Star Engine Maybe In Quebec??

My goodness sakes for old engine experts you sure were guessing about something simple. Doesn't everyone know about Durant, Star, Frontenac, DeVaux, Locomobiles ? Everyone knows Henry Ford but few know Billy was GM founder and Chevy. GM acquired Chevy 1917 but was on its own before that when Billy bought the Little Car Co and changed its name to Chevy.

Like most Americans, bet you didn't know although Durant Motors failed early 1931, we continued the Durant in Leaside under Dominion Motors into 1933. Also the all Canadian Frontenac July 1931 into 1934. Dominion Motors officially ended June 23 1944 when the last section of their factory and the remaining lands was sold to Frigidaire without enough funds left to pay shareholders. They also gave up their Charter as Dominion Motors Limited. That ended the only all Canadian Car Co since. Continental Motors was long gone before that and only making Continental engines.

Ironic about Frigidaire as that was another of Billy Durant's purchases by buying an ice box co and changing its name to Frigidaire. If I remember Frigidaire became under GM co's, which Billy founded GM 1908. Sort of full circle.

I forgot to mention there should be a serial number stamped into the engine at back of manifold area. This would have had a Stromburg U1 carb. The 22A had a U2 or W8A. Under Dominion mine is Tillotson J4A same as some Frontenac's but can be a W8A.

If you are collecting info we used
W4 1922 - 24 Star (4 cyl)
A22 1921 - 26 Durant (4 cyl)
B22 1922 - 24 Durant (6 cyl)
W5 after the W4 in Star and Durant to 1929 (4 cyl)
14L 27 / 28 Star and Durant (6 cyl)
15L Star and Durant after the 14L (6 cyl)
15U 70,75 Durant and 1930 617 Durant. This 617 is half 1930 body / fender wise but pre 30 chassis wise. (6 cyl)
W8 407 30 - 31 Durant (4 cyl)
22A 30 - 32 Durant and 31 - 32 Frontenac (6 cyl)
32A some 31 - 32 Durant / Frontenac's after 22A (6 cyl) but also 685 Frontenac and 633 Durant
1933 C-400 Frontenac (4 cyl) same as Continental Beacon with C-400 engine.
1933 C-600 Frontenac (6 cyl) same as Continental Flyer with C-600 engine.
Presently its out for lunch what the 1933 Continental Ace and corresponding Frontenac Ace used. The one example from Kingston Ont of a Fronty Ace now the US, has a 1931 Hall 40 motor used in DeVaux's, with Hall ground off the block ?? This engine is a 40 AA601. The casting date is 4/21/31. More speculation that Dominion Motors and Continental Motors were using up the left over 1931 motors of DeVaux - Hall Motors and Durant Motors

That site I mentioned before gives you an idea of when cars were produced and I should add Durant was not made 1927 year, only Star.

Should the engine be for sale across the river, Denis can use DMAC forum to post it. Transmission with straight cut gears is same for 407 or 6 cyl 22A engines in models E (Fronty) 407, 611, 614, 618 Durant's. However E, 670, 685 Fronty and 618 Durant have helical gears. Yes E and 618 can be either.

Confusing you ??? Get one of Billy's cars or off shoots and join the rest of us.

Where Are You From? Ottawa Ont

Do You own a car built by Durant? Dominion built 1932 614 Sedan

Re: 1930 Durant/Star Engine Maybe In Quebec??

Norm: again, many thxx...
I haven't followed cars for a number of years, and most of my old parts catalogs (weak reeds to lean on in the best of cases)were acquired to ID truck etc engines--that said:
a 36 King Products catalog (piston ass'blys, bearings, valves and some front end stuff) shows the 33 Ace with a Cont'l 41A 6cyl 33/8x?? (most of my catalogs have bore and cyl, but not stroke). No Canadian prod is mentioned.
Frontenac I'll have to eyeball some other catalogs; if no new post comes in it'll mean I didn't find it in any of my catalogs.
FWIW, that catalog also lists the 14U and 20E under Durant, and the 9L under Star; also under Star is the 20L in a 1Ton firetruck. These old parts catalogs are rife with inconsistencies, omissions and contradictions, so those may not be correct. I can email listings if you'd like.
That catalog shows the B22 22-23 with the Ansted C 6cyl; all the rest are listed as Cont'ls. Bud

Where Are You From? Portland OR

Do You own a car built by Durant? no

Re: 1930 Durant/Star Engine Maybe In Quebec??

Norm: Forgot to ask:
Down here we have the Standard Catalog of US cars, Mroz's Ency of Am'cn Comm'l Cars/Trucks, etc etc. Georganos World truck book I can't afford, at least last tome I looked, and I'm not that interested in world trucks anyhow; nor can I afford histories of individual makes. But does anything comparable to our Std cat/Mroz books exist re' Canadian car and/or truck and/or tractor production??
I haven't searched; I'm only reminded that something like that'd be handy when questions like US/Canadian production come up.

Where Are You From? Portland OR

Do You own a car built by Durant? no

Re: 1930 Durant/Star Engine Maybe In Quebec??

I agree with you about "These old parts catalogs are rife with inconsistencies, omissions and contradictions" You can put 4 different companies books / catalogues side by side and they don't match for same model and items. Lot of people use Branham's "bible" as a guide which is not accurate either and only carry US vehicles. Co's provided assumed to be issued models and spec's for future vehicles so Branham's could issue the books, then Co's turn around and not produce the model that year or ever or different spec's.
We as a club are trying to sort out what was produced, when and what info. Not an easy task. There is nothing solid in stone about any of the Durant empire and off shoots of vehicles to say your car is 100 % as it should be. Just got an email this morning from BC with a fellow working on an 1928 M2 coup. That should have a 3 speed tranny but its a late issue when 4 speed was being thought about for another model and factory put a 4 speed in it instead.
How about factory brochure for a 1930 613 Durant. Brochure exists, model never produced.
Ad for a 614 with Pullman seat feature. Never happened but I pulled it from a US paper, by accident.
Lots of catalogues carry the 620 and 621 Durant produced US by Lansing. To our knowledge Lansing was out of business and only US plant still making cars 1931. Its last model the short lived 619 and production stopped summer of 1931. We never made the 619 here and it was said never sold here. Proved that wrong with an ad out of the Ottawa newspaper Aug 1931 introducing the 619 after US stopped. My theory unsold US models shipped to Leaside to be sold here by Dominion Motors on behalf of Durant Motors. Bottom of ad says Durant Motors Ltd, a Division Dominion Motors Ltd, Toronto. To further confirm the 619 not being built here our after market catalogues do not list any parts for it, US do. Same with Ace since not made here but imported only, and Frontenac name slapped on it.

Again what I was saying that factory's could have put anything in vehicles to shove cars out the door. That Fronty Ace with 40 Hall engine an example.
Bet you can't find anything on a 633 Durant 1933. Its still out to lunch puzzling that one out if 32 or 33. No sales brochures or ads and not in any parts books other than our Leaside after market catalogues. Yet a coup and a sedan exist. Its all 32 Frontenac except hood, rad shell, hub caps, Durant crest and VIN plate info. Body / fenders 32 680 DeVaux / 685 Frontenac, but with Frontenac 32A engine, the DeVaux has 40A engine. Sounds simple the 633 should have a 32A engine also per after market. Sedan does, coup has a C-600. More using up of parts with failing co's ?

The repro Chilton Interchangeable Parts Handbook lists the 621 / 622 with 22A engine. Being US it doesn't carry our Canadian Durant models not made US or Frontenac's.
That indicates the Ace as having a 41A
It indicates the 70 as having a 20E engine
No Durant listing for a 14U

Durant motto should have been "No Two Cars the Same" not "A Good Car". I have corresponded in the past with Jon the Carb King about our vehicles and he said there was one worse then Durant to try to figure out anything. Can't recall what that auto co was. So we are not the bottom of the barrel but very close.

Where Are You From? Ottawa Ont

Do You own a car built by Durant? Dominion built 1932 614 Sedan

Re: 1930 Durant/Star Engine Maybe In Quebec??

I love that motto. I think someone should make that emblem up in brass with an image of a durant, it'd be a nice little emblem to put on the car. (Referring to Norm's No two cars the same comment,)

Where Are You From? bc

Do You own a car built by Durant? 1928 M2 Coupe

Re: 1930 Durant/Star Engine Maybe In Quebec??

I see what you mean...my fickle curiosity piqued, I ran Durant and Star cars thru several of my period parts catalogs and, in addition to those engines Norm already listed, found entries for the 6Y, 7U, 8U, 9L (and 9LA in an export model) 14U, 18E, 18L, 20L and 28L

Where Are You From? Portland OR

Do You own a car built by Durant? no

Re: 1930 Durant/Star Engine Maybe In Quebec??

Wonder if true, what year, model, or plant those engines might have been used by. Must be identical engines to known existing ones otherwise our after market catalogues would indicate differences of parts on models, which they do. These models used yy, that model used ww, those used zz. Up to engine number xxxx and after engine number xxxx. Same with other parts. Small example brake drums model 685 to serial (vin) number K1201. Brake drums 685 K1202 and model 633. So much fun if you don't have a vin plate to try to guess things.

Did you run into an engine J27R 4 cyl for De-Vo 1936 ? or that's what is in the right front casting number. Serial number at back C400A606B. Hum I wonder if that's a C-400 and info has gotten messed up with time. There seems to be all sorts of odd casting letters and numbers on engines that make no sense.
Club member has just done a write up on Norman DeVaux we all got in the current Partner mag. Seems like that 1930 613 Durant brochure that exists for a car that wasn't produced, a folder for a 1935 DeVaux Four Forty Four was issued but car never made. 1936 DeVaux announced formation of De-Vo Motor Car Corp in Maryland. A prototype of the 1937 was built and exhibited in South Africa Sept / Oct 1936. The location of this car is unknown presently but was 1976 in South Africa.

Where Are You From? Ottawa Ont

Do You own a car built by Durant? Dominion built 1932 614 Sedan

Re: 1930 Durant/Star Engine Maybe In Quebec??

Sounds like a real Gordian Knot...
Std Cat 1805-1942 says brochure only on the 35 de V, and only one De-Vo prototype with a Cont 4 built, so wouldn't be anything in my stuff...
Interesting about the "J27R"...it'd be a departure from Cont'ls usual engine designations in that they started with letters (B5, B7, K4, V4, V7--all 4s) before going to the number systems (7-, 8- ad nauseum) apparently not reverting to letter prefixes until designating engines by primary usage (F4140 "automotive" (ie, truck but some ind'l eqpmt like forklifts), F140 Ag/ind'l/everything except automotive and stand alone power units, PF140 stand alone power units---one set had timing gears, the other chains, but I can't keep them apart)...
Possibly a then special designation for export models as Std Cat says De-Vo was to be export only??...
I have only two 27s on my Cont'l list--27B, a typical 6 (all the 20 to 29s on my list are 6 or 8) and 27R--but the 27R was put down before I realized I had to also put down sources, and it's apparently not in any of the 20-something part catalog engine lists I've indexed....frustrating, altho it should be another 6, not a 4...
I'm inclined to think you're correct on the C400; they were apparently still available as Divco and Gray Marine are listed using them up into 37 and maybe 38...Federal #9 3/4-1ton used them in 1937, going to F4140 1938...
38 Vic gasket catalog lists, as one entry in the Cont'l engine sections:
"(Passenger) Beacon, C400, 1933, 41, 1934. 4cyl. 33/8x4
(Motor)---C4113-PC113. 4cyl 3x4; C4124. 3x43/8; C4140. 33/16x43/8;C4143-PC143. 33/8x4" Then showing one head gasket and one set of eleven other gaskets/sets for all those engines, apparently the mamed engines being descendants of or developed from the C400..

Where Are You From? Portland OR

Do You own a car built by Durant? no

Re: 1930 Durant/Star Engine Maybe In Quebec??

I was wondering if Denis still had this motor? Does anyone know how I can reach him?

Where Are You From? NJ

Do You own a car built by Durant? Yes

Re: 1930 Durant/Star Engine Maybe In Quebec??

Denis can be reached thru the smokstak site---enter Rouleau (sp?)in search there, his postings will come up. Click on his name on any post and an email etc box will come up.

Where Are You From? Portland, OR

Do You own a car built by Durant? no

Re: 1930 Durant/Star Engine Maybe In Quebec??

Sheesh!!! Senior moment!! Denis has a website: buzzcoil brinkster something?? Just Google him, it'll come up...

Where Are You From? Portland, OR

Do You own a car built by Durant? no

Re: 1930 Durant/Star Engine Maybe In Quebec??

Well hi Bud ... can finally update some of the previous mails.

1933 Ace did use what was called a 41A on engine plate but in fact the block has 40A casting with dates April 1931 and Hall name ground off. This we knew now from info / pic from the owner of five Ace's. It also updated and brought to light the Frontenac Ace which was not made here but imported and Canadianized a bit, had its own model and vin. US 81 / Can 91. Assume De Vaux ordered too many blocks 1931 and Continental Motors who took over De Vaux 1932 used them up.

DeVo was not made 1935 but one was 1937 based on the 1934 Continental Red Seal (Beacon) That car is in S Africa with C-400 engine used on Beacon (US) and Frontenac C-400 in Can.

Finally tracked down your info some of your books claimed the 14L was used on Durant and 9L was used on Star. In fact 14U was used on 1926 - 27 B60 Flint and 9L was used on 1926 - 27 Z18 Flint. So partly correct they are tied to Billy Durant, just wrong make / Co. To copy info .... The Flint Motor Car company was created in July 1922 shortly after Durant's purchase of the Willys-Overland factory in Elizabeth, New Jersey.Production of the E-55 began June 1923. Three new models, the B-60, the E-80 and the Z-18 were introduced in 1926. 1927 was the last year of production for the Flint. ....

Like we said before books of the time and later are full of errors and omissions. Our own aftermarket catalogues have that with models missing or info incorrect.

Oh yes about Jon the carb king who never heard of the carbs used in our Canadian Durant's nor a car called a Frontenac, the bottom of the barrel was Graham to unravel, with Durant next, he said.

Where Are You From? Ottawa Ont

Do You own a car built by Durant? Dominion built 1932 614 Sedan

Re: 1930 Durant/Star Engine Maybe In Quebec??

Thanks Bud! Got in touch with him


Where Are You From? NJ

Do You own a car built by Durant? Yes

 

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