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Handles 30 - 32

Just trying to get an idea how many different outside handles were made for the 30 - 32 Durant's.

I know the spear type used 30 / 31 and the plain type used on 407's. All handles cast metal and chromed. The 407 escutcheon on open cars is stainless steel not cast like the grips and closed cars escutcheon. Having said that, I was under the impression my handles were 407 looking, which seems to be like Wayne's 619 as well. Taking a look at Wayne's side view of the car, they are like mine with a raised center line and not 407. Grip is slightly different shaped but close. So now we have 3 different. I discovered I have an all stainless steel skinned one, similar to Ford A in making, same shape of grip as Wayne's and mine, but without the raised center line. Wasn't aware they made all stainless ones. My locking cast one is slightly different also. So now 5 different.

Dot came with two matching Wayne's, I think, some mid to late 30's truck handle and one spear type. I assume I am looking for 619 handles perhaps carried over to Dominion Motors for 1932 614 / 618. But ... not necessarily so. Our 32 inside handles completely different, just like bumpers, headlights, bumper medallions.

Where Are You From? Ottawa Ont

Do You own a car built by Durant? 1932 614 sedan

Re: Handles 30 - 32

Hi Norm.
Your note refers to the 30/31 spear type outside handles and the plain 407 type. My 407s were made in Oakland CA and have the spear type design on them which matches the crown on the headlight rings. Do you have 407 handles that are plain rather than the spear type like I have on my 407's?

Where Are You From? Auburn, WA

Do You own a car built by Durant? Yes

Re: Handles 30 - 32

Hi Bob
No. I thought mine were the plain type, based on two 407's here and have been trying to locate the passenger side handles to match. I have one plain one that's cracking and has been modified now by lengthening the shaft from open to closed car. I need the backing plate (escutcheon) of a closed car to make it complete. And no a spear backing is not the same I noted after comparing to the spear handle I have. Pulled up Wayne's photo again of his 619 and mine seem to match his with raised ridge down the center. So I need 619 handles not plain. Its entirely possible with failure of Durant Motors and only Lansing putting out cars to summer of 1931, the short lived 619 handles were used here on our Dominion Motors 614 and 618, for 1932. We are under the assumption Dominion used up US Durant Motors parts to create our Dominion cars. My engine is April 1931 prior to Dominion pushing out Durant / Frontenac July 1931 and mine could be mid to late 32. Would be nice to know numbers made for 32. Can't have been many with Dominion a struggling company.

More of interest re 619. This was Lansing issue of model May 1931 and only US after market catalogues mention parts for the 619. I have a 619 ad Aug 24 1931 announcing the new 619 for sale in Ottawa by our Durant Dealer and Ray has 619 bumpers he got from a body shop in Ont. So the car was in Canada also but we didn't offer parts. Lansing may have pushed the 619 vehicles to Toronto to get rid of them when it closed summer of 31. Ad says Division of Dominion Motors, Leaside. They never made 619's. Just to clarify 619 one piece bumpers are closed on the ends and different bumper medallions to our 32 open ended one piece bumpers and diamond shaped medallions.

Its like we say no two cars the same and plant parts different to the other plants for same model or same models / same plant. Such a company. Toss the parts into the air and whatever lands first get used on that car ,next one different.

Now this is interesting 1935 the US after market catalogue says handles for 406, 407, 610, 612, 614, 615, 616, 619 but next line below has plain type for all and cheaper.
Our after market 1935 and 1938, breaks it down as different handles for 407 and 611 in and out, to the 614, 617 and 618, That just adds to idea of plain for 407 which is what I am seeing on cars, and spear 1930 / 31 but different for 32. (The generic pics of a few handles has the plain type as one of them in the Can catalogues. US has only one that looks like 30 - 31 Ford A style)

Where Are You From? Ottawa Ont

Do You own a car built by Durant? 1932 614 sedan

Re: Handles 30 - 32

Bob, here's more food for thought. The 407 was the poor mans 614. Created using a 614 frame and reversing the front cross member and lengthening the fan shaft. Came without bumpers to save the buyer even more money. So cheaper plain handles make even more sense. I think DMAC carries the write up on the 407 creation.

One of the two 407's here didn't have bumpers and some past owner used 29 Chevy bumpers on it prior to 1960. That's how I recognised the car again in 2006. I recall seeing a Kijiji add for a 407 and it was without bumpers as well.

Dealer options to buyer could have been to use the spear handles, bumpers and other items to make the car seem 614. Much like Ford T's where you could buy rad shells and steel hoods to hid the brass rad, take off the aluminum hood, to make it modern looking.

That headlight door peak ornamation you mention was an option and you could buy doors with or without or just the ornamation only to put on yourself. There are more Ford A's with Flying Quails, cowl lights, etc than ever left the factory, as a plain Ford. The Butter's make the ornamation, plus spear and plain handles.

Where Are You From? Ottawa Ont

Do You own a car built by Durant? 1932 614 sedan

Re: Handles 30 - 32

Norm: interesting info on the cars up there.

I have three 1930 Model 407 4door sedans, all made in Oakland, CA and close in production: C-1163, C-1455 and C-1499. All three have the same spear shape on the door handles, the crowns on the headlight rims and all three have bumpers, although now only one has bumpers both front and rear. Also, all three were painted in the same colors.
Looks like Oakland did them all the same.

I thought the frames were all the same, have not heard about the front cross member being different on the 4 cylinder cars.

Where Are You From? Auburn, WA

Do You own a car built by Durant? Yes

Re: Handles 30 - 32

Interesting Bob. If you look under Special Interest section there is the write up on the 407. That one says about drilling two holes in the front cross member to accept the W8 engine borrowed from a Rugby Truck and placed in a 614 frame. The 614 spearoid hood was replaced by the louvered hood, for 407's. I understood the 407 was a Canadian model like one or two other models.

The reason I said the cross member was reversed to accept the shorter engine, was a lad in BC had a 407 and in order to accept the 22A six cyl in his, he had to reverse the cross member. Checking the Can 35 after market catalogue for frames, the 407 and 614 have their own frames. US doesn't even mention frames for any model.

Now another thought on your 407's and parts. The 407 was a Leaside produced car with Deluxe only available in Canada. The write up says only a handful of 407's were known to be made in Oakland plant. Could be with only a handful made there, they used the 614 handles, bumpers and light adornments. If you refer to VIN listing under 407's it only has Leaside VIN's for 30 and 31. Terry's site also only has Leaside VIN. As mentioned before the Can 35 after market seperates handles for 614 and 407.

Too bad you can't see better on this issue of Partner, front cover. Reg's 1930 Rugby touring which is all 407, but the crest, has the plain handles. And as I have just learned are not same as the 619's and our 1932 614 / 618.

Your C VIN's seem to fit the 614 ones for Oakland. Makes sense if they only slipped one or two 407's into the production line, to just stamp that car with next 614 VIN rather than have its own VIN series. Durant was a dying Company by then and Oakland stopped all production Dec 17th 1930. Humm I see Oakland for 1930 only had one set of VIN's for everything. Did they not make other than 614 and a few 407's ?

Talking about painted the same, I always thought 1930 Durant's had one colour. Blue body's and black fenders, back in the 60 / 70's. Thats all I saw in fields and wrecking yards, and my 30 614 sedan was the same. Wasn't until I got a 1930 Leaside 614 booklet, off Ebay 2006, showing all models of 614 they showed different colours. Natch the Special sedan is blue also in that. My old 30 was a Special and I found another the same two years ago outside Ottawa in a barn and guess what colour .... yep blue / black.

Where Are You From? Ottawa Ont

Do You own a car built by Durant? 1932 614 sedan

Re: Handles 30 - 32

Hi Norm.
I believe that more than just a few 407s were made at Oakland, judging by the three I have which have serial numbers very close to each other. If they only made a few, it would be strange that I would get so many and with serial numbers so close together. BTW years ago I was also able to pick up a complete engine and trans package from a 1930 model 407 that was cut in half and made into a statinary saw for cutting logs. I do not know the serial number for that car but it must have come from Oakland as well. I still have that package except for the head which I took off and sent to Lance so that he could get Charlie Spitz' car back together some years ago.

I believe that Oakland had just one series of serial numbers C-1001 and up, and just numbered the cars one after the other as they rolled off the assembly line with out regard to the model. I also have a 1930 614 from Oakland C-1279 which is just a little earlier production than my 407s.

Since you mentioned that Oakland ceased production December 17, 1930 I will check my engine casting numbers when I get a chance just to see where those dates fall.

BTW all three of my 407's were painted the same. They had maroon bodies with pin striping and black fenders. The 614 was a tan color with a darker brown beltline and black fenders.

I have also heard/read that the later 4 clyinder cars were called Model 610. Was that a Canadian model?

Bob

Where Are You From? Auburn, WA

Do You own a car built by Durant? Yes

Re: Handles 30 - 32

Hi Bob You must have had maroon paint works down there and we had blue, ha ha

Must be right what you say about just one set of continuous C VIN's regardless of model. Can't have made all those 614's on the VIN listing and no other models.

Quite common up here about chopping cars to power saw mills. Roblins auto wrecker online had a 29 4 cyl D from cowl forward and a 1919 Gray Dort the same. Both came in as scrap metal from a former saw mill. I managed to have the Gray Dort saved via the Gray Dort Club but no idea on the Durant. It could still be there. Going up to Calibogie from Perth in the 60 / 70's there were all sorts of front sections cast aside from saw mills. Good many 28 / 29 Durant's. Recall a straight eight Packard one and Oakland as well. When I got back into this I went to Middleville to see if I could track down the former owners of the 1931 614 here. Almost but the firsts name. Know area where and he died of a heart attack while driving the car but not his name. I knew were my chum at the time bought the 31 in Middleville 1963, so went to see the people of the building. The owner was deceased from stupidity of not having a gas space heater checked and they found him on the floor of the trailer, next day. Anyway I asked the brother in law what the remains was of a car beside the building. 29 Graham Paige sedan that was mint in the 60's and owned by some little old lady who hardly drove it. The deceased cut the car up for a saw mill and a few others. Now its only half frame back with wire wheels. I think that too is now gone for scrap.

Nope if you read the 407 write up. The 610 came out with Pullman feature. Lansing only L VIN's on list but of course Oakland under the C VIN for everything. We didn't have 610, only the 407 under the four cyl. Mind you you didn't have the 611 or 618. Our only Pullman seems to be the 33 / 34 Frontenac.

Here's the part write up.

""With no fanfare, the 407 was carried into 1931 production. In the US operation, the California plant offered the model 610 which was the same as the model 407. This model was announced on September 23, 1930. In late November, Durant Motors announced the addition of the "pullman" attachment which would be available on the US model 610 and the 6 cylinder model 612 which had been introduced a month earlier. With this addition, the 407 and 610 were no longer the same car, but the only change was the front seat, which would lower into a bed on the model 610.

Production continued unchanged until approximately April 1931, when the model 407 was dropped for good from the Durant line. This was one of the changes made by Canadian management which had recently taken over the Durant factory at Leaside after Durant Motors of Michigan defaulted on a loan which had the Canadian factory at Leaside as collateral. In the US, the model 610 was also dropped about the same time.""

Norm

Where Are You From? Ottawa Ont

Do You own a car built by Durant? 1932 614 sedan

Re: Handles 30 - 32

Hi Norm.

I must say that the write up you mention has suspect information. Why would the California Durant factory offer the 407 and 610 in 1930 if they were the same car? And while thy were struggling so badly?

According to the write up, they offered the 610 in September but did not add the pullman front seat until November and then shut down in mid-December.I wonder if they really made any 610's in Sept -Nov or if those were just advertising announcements to try to hype up the car as a "new" model by advertising a new number? And did they make any 610's at all in California if they shut down in mid-December? Does anyone have a 610 produced in California? I know they made 407's in 1930 as I have three, but I have never seen a 610 from California.

At one point, Durant said they were not going to produce 4 cylinder cars in 1930, but they did make them anyway. Some of their advertisements and announcements created a lot of mystery and confusing info out there.

Where Are You From? Auburn, WA

Do You own a car built by Durant? Ys

Re: Handles 30 - 32

Hi Bob

I think what the write up is saying was what you thought. The 407 became the 610. Since the 407 was the Canadian it continued into 1931. Write up says later, about Canada stopping the 407 at same time US stopped the 610. That would be Lansing with yours already closed Dec 1930.

No idea what plant Lance's 610 is from in Fla. It was Lansing and Oakland plants that made the 610. Very little of what Durant Motors did makes sense. As you say why produce a car and then close. Lansing did the same 1931. That was only US plant still making cars 1931 and they bring out a 619 as they close ??? I'm sure thats why I have an ad in Ottawa after Lansing closed advertising the 619 but under Dominion Motors name on the ad. We didn't make the 619 but I'll bet the Lansing unsold 619's were shipped here to get rid of.

Every hear of a 1930 613 ? Lance has an ad for one by Durant Motors. If all US was shut down by end of 1930 but Lansing continued to summer of 1931 then who produced the 621 and 622 in 1932 ? Terry's site says the ones made might have only been show cars, no production. Yet a 1937 headlight book gives lense size for the two models. I seem to recall other parts listings for these two models.

Lot of mystery to the cars in the 30's. We have our own with the 633 and no info around on it, but two cars exist and maybe a 3rd.


Where Are You From? Ottawa Ont

Do You own a car built by Durant? 1932 614 sedan

Re: Handles 30 - 32

Hi Norm.
I am not sure that Oakland made any 610s I have never seen or hear of any from Oakland, just the 407's.
Do you have any info/documentation on any 610's being made at Oakland?

Where Are You From? Auburn, WA

Do You own a car built by Durant? Ys

Re: Handles 30 - 32

Hi Bob

No I have no back up other than what is in DMAC info and the US after market catalogues that list parts for the 407 and 610. We would have info had Oakland used seperate VIN's for models, instead of 7783 C number's for all 1930 vehicles, cars and trucks. We will never know how many of each model Oakland put out, the way they did it. Seems the same with Dominion cars as to production totals each model.

No one had ever heard of a blind back 614 and that surfaced in Calif and was talked about in forum. Seems a few other odd ball unknowns also in Calif.

But perhaps Oakland did put out 7783 614's 1930 and we just don't have the records for the other models. If Lansing put out 30,000 614's and we put out 4269, then 7783 is reasonable for 614 only at Oakland. Seems we put out 3350 407's so your C-1163, C-1455 and C-1499 might not be lumped under the one C VIN for all models ,cars and trucks, and we just don't have the info for Oakland vehicles other than 614's. Terrys site is same info for Oakland cars after 1929 models. Lansing and Leaside we have to a point. First number for each model but no final one. However it didn't take rocket science to figure out the number of 614's for 1931 if 1930 ended at T4269 and first 1931 started at B4270 and 1932 started at J5035. They just kept increasing the number and changed the alpha letter each year. I'll bet they made C-1163, C-1455 and C-1499 under 614 also at Oakland.

We used T, like Lansing used L, for every VIN year and model. Wasn't until 1931 we used A - P for each year and model. A for 1931 407, B for 614, C for 618 ,D for 611, E for E or 618 Frontenac. F 1932 618, G 670 Fronty, H for 407, J (mine) for 614, K 685 Fronty. L 1933 for 633, M for C400 and P for C600. Goodness knows what Dominion would have used if production had continued a few more years and beyond the alphabet. They omitted I, N and O. I can see the I as a 1 and O as a 0 were bypassed. Could the N have been reserved for the "Frontenac" Ace which was not built here ?

Isn't this a guessing game shrouded in time what actually is the truth about after 1929 vehicles ? And what parts might have been used. Like we say their motto should have been "No Two Cars the Same". At least Ford kept to one model, the Model A, and parts interchanged 28 - 32, like the T. Not like Durant with many models and models in those models, plus different parts suppliers, Plus parts didn't interchange pre 30 and post 29 nor even in same year and models. Not hard to see why Ford, Chev, servived and Durant didn't.


Where Are You From? Ottawa Ont

Do You own a car built by Durant? 1932 614 sedan

 

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