Fred

I did a lot of research on this. The ratio would vary widely with the quality of the formation. For the infantry divisions a ratio of 1 CP to 2 artillery pieces would be the lowest. That is one observation team per 8-12 gun battalion. A typical setup might be one CP tied to the 122mm cannon battlion, and one for the 120mm mortar group. If the attack or defense is a well prepared situation then the Army artillery commander would reinforce the division artillery with extra personell & equipment. Then you might have three or four CP for the Red Army on the PB map.



For the Germans a ratio of 1-1 would not be unreasonable and I'd seldom go higher than 1-2. Again it depends on the quality of the unit. The variable here being how combat depleted it is.



When moving artillery CPs you run into problems with maintaining a accurate fix on the distance & direction to the guns. The modern method of using a accurate map with a grid printed on it did ot exist in 1943-45. At least not in the context of PB & PL. A combination of survey equipment and time consuming adjustment of check or registration shots was required. There is also the matter of communication. For the Reds this meant snaking phone cable between the CP & guns. The Germans had radios but constant use made them less available. Radios were not as portable as you might think. Particularly transmiters that were usefull beyond 2-3 kilometers.



In 1943 the Germans did a lot of work on the problem of mobile artillery observers, but the results were largely confined to the experimental 18th Artillery Division. After this formation was disbanded the capability was lost.

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Replying to:

I read on Consimworld that it is a good idea to stick to using CPs for the Russians to Spot IF Artillery/Mortars to simulate the Russian artillery doctrine of using dedicated spotters. Has anyone figured out a ratio of CP/Units to figure out how many to add? Maybe one per regiment/brigade sized unit, or one per artillery battalion? Any ideas?



Also, I think that if CPs are used they should get a movement of 1 and be able to be truck transported. Any ideas on this?



Thanks,



Fred

Carl:



Thanks for the excellent reply. Your answer brings up some different questions. It seems then that the mobile artillery spotter was not really in existence in WWII, if so, then it begs this question: Is the Panzer Leader notion of allowing any unit to call in IDF accurate? Was the US and Brits really able to do so?



It seems then, that during a mobile battle in WWII, both the Germans and (especially) the Russians would lose artillery support as the battle moved beyond or out of sight of the fixed observers. Maybe PB had it right in the first place.



What were some of your sources? I would be interested in reading more on this subject.



Fred

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Replying to:

Fred

I did a lot of research on this. The ratio would vary widely with the quality of the formation. For the infantry divisions a ratio of 1 CP to 2 artillery pieces would be the lowest. That is one observation team per 8-12 gun battalion. A typical setup might be one CP tied to the 122mm cannon battlion, and one for the 120mm mortar group. If the attack or defense is a well prepared situation then the Army artillery commander would reinforce the division artillery with extra personell & equipment. Then you might have three or four CP for the Red Army on the PB map.



For the Germans a ratio of 1-1 would not be unreasonable and I'd seldom go higher than 1-2. Again it depends on the quality of the unit. The variable here being how combat depleted it is.



When moving artillery CPs you run into problems with maintaining a accurate fix on the distance & direction to the guns. The modern method of using a accurate map with a grid printed on it did ot exist in 1943-45. At least not in the context of PB & PL. A combination of survey equipment and time consuming adjustment of check or registration shots was required. There is also the matter of communication. For the Reds this meant snaking phone cable between the CP & guns. The Germans had radios but constant use made them less available. Radios were not as portable as you might think. Particularly transmiters that were usefull beyond 2-3 kilometers.



In 1943 the Germans did a lot of work on the problem of mobile artillery observers, but the results were largely confined to the experimental 18th Artillery Division. After this formation was disbanded the capability was lost.

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

I read on Consimworld that it is a good idea to stick to using CPs for the Russians to Spot IF Artillery/Mortars to simulate the Russian artillery doctrine of using dedicated spotters. Has anyone figured out a ratio of CP/Units to figure out how many to add? Maybe one per regiment/brigade sized unit, or one per artillery battalion? Any ideas?



Also, I think that if CPs are used they should get a movement of 1 and be able to be truck transported. Any ideas on this?



Thanks,



Fred

Here's an interesting site on WWII artillery doctrine for the US, Germans, British and Russian armies.

http://www.fireandfury.com/artillerytutorial/artytut.shtml

This is good research done for a minatures wargame.



After a quick read of it, I think that maybe PB/PL should have IDF artillery done along these lines trying to keep it simple).



Russian: IDF Artillery can only be called in from CPs in fixed locations (IE use the CP counter as is, cannot move).

Probably have 1 per three artillery units. You could have scenario specific rules for preplanned barrages on fixed German positions, by allowing the Russian to fire at hexes in LOS of a CP unit on the first turn whether a German unit is spotted or not.



German: IDF Artillery can be called in by CP units only but they can have a movement factor of one (as infantry) or be transported. One CP per two units of artillery and one per battalion sized maneuver unit with appropriate transport. Mortars can be called in by all infantry units.



Brits and American: Fire as per the PL rules.

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

Carl:



Thanks for the excellent reply. Your answer brings up some different questions. It seems then that the mobile artillery spotter was not really in existence in WWII, if so, then it begs this question: Is the Panzer Leader notion of allowing any unit to call in IDF accurate? Was the US and Brits really able to do so?



It seems then, that during a mobile battle in WWII, both the Germans and (especially) the Russians would lose artillery support as the battle moved beyond or out of sight of the fixed observers. Maybe PB had it right in the first place.



What were some of your sources? I would be interested in reading more on this subject.



Fred

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

Fred

I did a lot of research on this. The ratio would vary widely with the quality of the formation. For the infantry divisions a ratio of 1 CP to 2 artillery pieces would be the lowest. That is one observation team per 8-12 gun battalion. A typical setup might be one CP tied to the 122mm cannon battlion, and one for the 120mm mortar group. If the attack or defense is a well prepared situation then the Army artillery commander would reinforce the division artillery with extra personell & equipment. Then you might have three or four CP for the Red Army on the PB map.



For the Germans a ratio of 1-1 would not be unreasonable and I'd seldom go higher than 1-2. Again it depends on the quality of the unit. The variable here being how combat depleted it is.



When moving artillery CPs you run into problems with maintaining a accurate fix on the distance & direction to the guns. The modern method of using a accurate map with a grid printed on it did ot exist in 1943-45. At least not in the context of PB & PL. A combination of survey equipment and time consuming adjustment of check or registration shots was required. There is also the matter of communication. For the Reds this meant snaking phone cable between the CP & guns. The Germans had radios but constant use made them less available. Radios were not as portable as you might think. Particularly transmiters that were usefull beyond 2-3 kilometers.



In 1943 the Germans did a lot of work on the problem of mobile artillery observers, but the results were largely confined to the experimental 18th Artillery Division. After this formation was disbanded the capability was lost.

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

I read on Consimworld that it is a good idea to stick to using CPs for the Russians to Spot IF Artillery/Mortars to simulate the Russian artillery doctrine of using dedicated spotters. Has anyone figured out a ratio of CP/Units to figure out how many to add? Maybe one per regiment/brigade sized unit, or one per artillery battalion? Any ideas?



Also, I think that if CPs are used they should get a movement of 1 and be able to be truck transported. Any ideas on this?



Thanks,



Fred

Fred

your last post is close to what I prefer. I was originally trained in artillery in 1983 and spent some ten years active & reserve service in artillery. My sources run from the US Field Artillery Journal, the Royal Field Artillery Journal, and literally hundreds of other magizine articals and books.



Strictly speaking the Brits & US werwe as dependant on CPs, the trained & equiped observation team, as the others. But, we many more teams per battalion. A minimum ratio of 1.3 per artillery piece would not be unrealistic. Furthermore both armys were working out the problems of doing IF with mobile observers and with control by infantry or tank crews. At least on a limited basis all this was possible in late 1944. I would not allow trucks or empty halftracks to spot IF in PL.



The German army regressed during the war. Intially the artillery seemd to be fairly capable at the battalion level. As casualties & equipment losses became critical during 1942 the German artillery appears to have regressed. In late 1944 I have seen refrences to Corps artillery commanders placing the artillery of subordinate divisions directly under the technical control of his staff. Many divison artillery regiments were so lacking in trainig and equipment they could no longer operate effectively without help. This is similar to what was going on in the Soviet artillery in 1941.

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

Here's an interesting site on WWII artillery doctrine for the US, Germans, British and Russian armies.

http://www.fireandfury.com/artillerytutorial/artytut.shtml

This is good research done for a minatures wargame.



After a quick read of it, I think that maybe PB/PL should have IDF artillery done along these lines trying to keep it simple).



Russian: IDF Artillery can only be called in from CPs in fixed locations (IE use the CP counter as is, cannot move).

Probably have 1 per three artillery units. You could have scenario specific rules for preplanned barrages on fixed German positions, by allowing the Russian to fire at hexes in LOS of a CP unit on the first turn whether a German unit is spotted or not.



German: IDF Artillery can be called in by CP units only but they can have a movement factor of one (as infantry) or be transported. One CP per two units of artillery and one per battalion sized maneuver unit with appropriate transport. Mortars can be called in by all infantry units.



Brits and American: Fire as per the PL rules.

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

Carl:



Thanks for the excellent reply. Your answer brings up some different questions. It seems then that the mobile artillery spotter was not really in existence in WWII, if so, then it begs this question: Is the Panzer Leader notion of allowing any unit to call in IDF accurate? Was the US and Brits really able to do so?



It seems then, that during a mobile battle in WWII, both the Germans and (especially) the Russians would lose artillery support as the battle moved beyond or out of sight of the fixed observers. Maybe PB had it right in the first place.



What were some of your sources? I would be interested in reading more on this subject.



Fred

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

Fred

I did a lot of research on this. The ratio would vary widely with the quality of the formation. For the infantry divisions a ratio of 1 CP to 2 artillery pieces would be the lowest. That is one observation team per 8-12 gun battalion. A typical setup might be one CP tied to the 122mm cannon battlion, and one for the 120mm mortar group. If the attack or defense is a well prepared situation then the Army artillery commander would reinforce the division artillery with extra personell & equipment. Then you might have three or four CP for the Red Army on the PB map.



For the Germans a ratio of 1-1 would not be unreasonable and I'd seldom go higher than 1-2. Again it depends on the quality of the unit. The variable here being how combat depleted it is.



When moving artillery CPs you run into problems with maintaining a accurate fix on the distance & direction to the guns. The modern method of using a accurate map with a grid printed on it did ot exist in 1943-45. At least not in the context of PB & PL. A combination of survey equipment and time consuming adjustment of check or registration shots was required. There is also the matter of communication. For the Reds this meant snaking phone cable between the CP & guns. The Germans had radios but constant use made them less available. Radios were not as portable as you might think. Particularly transmiters that were usefull beyond 2-3 kilometers.



In 1943 the Germans did a lot of work on the problem of mobile artillery observers, but the results were largely confined to the experimental 18th Artillery Division. After this formation was disbanded the capability was lost.

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

I read on Consimworld that it is a good idea to stick to using CPs for the Russians to Spot IF Artillery/Mortars to simulate the Russian artillery doctrine of using dedicated spotters. Has anyone figured out a ratio of CP/Units to figure out how many to add? Maybe one per regiment/brigade sized unit, or one per artillery battalion? Any ideas?



Also, I think that if CPs are used they should get a movement of 1 and be able to be truck transported. Any ideas on this?



Thanks,



Fred