according to AGRSS you can't install used glass, but what if that is all that is available for the car?

Good question.

I've only had that happen once in the case of a door glass for an Infiniti of some sort. Does that rule still count in the case of a door glass that bolts or rivets in place??

According to most insurace company's they can. That is why they write up estimates with used car parts (glass included)

I thought AGRSS didn't want used installed because the manufactures of urethane don't approve of it or want there products used. So if you R&I it's used isn't it? You don't know what urethane was used by the original manufacturer or what if you pull a glass that was replaced before you got to it. I think that is one part of AGRSS that is flawed. If you can pull it and save it you should be able to clean/trim and install as a regular glass.

I kind of agree with Lee.

I don't like putting in used parts (especialy for the prices people around here want to pay), but I've never had a problem when I have done it.

Which adhesive companies have said they don't allow used glass?

Acording to AGRSS All of them.

Yeah...someone posted something from Sika's materials that said it didn't recommend usage on used glass.

I personaly have never had a problem, but then its not something I do alot.

if there is a compatability issue with existing thane, wouldn't it stand to reason the body would have the same issue?

Insurance companies seem to only care about "cheap". Safety never seems to be a concern, until something happens & THEN they go after the glass or body shop.

Must be nice not having to assume responsibilty for anything.

They have gladly assumed responsibility for the 5+ Billion dollars they record in profits yearly , so you can't say they don't take responsibility for "anything"

Dan,

I was scratching my head wondering the same thing. If there is a compatibility issue it would be the same for the 'thane on the body!

That would mean every BIT of old thane would have to come off before a new install could be completed!

Wouldn't that be fun- take every pichweld down to e-coat, then have to stock every kind of 'thane that is used by any particular vehicle maker, then make sure none of it expires. Maybe not a bad idea if we could just have to install 2-3 jobs per day, and charge $1000 plus for every job. On second thought, BRING IT ON!!

so basically if it is an obsolete part and all thats out there is used, then the customer is s.o.l.? this is the way i have interpreted it.

What did you do before AGRSS existed? Think about when you heard about certain cars that needed hi mod thane and you used your reg thane to put it in(and you had no problems). This(AGRSS) is all about installing properly and I'm all for it. But who is AGRSS and why do they want to run your business. How many people on the AGRSS board of advisors have installed glass??? Please post your opinions.

BQA,

I think this is typical of every printed "manifesto" ever created. There are always grey areas that aren't foreseen or treated as though they don't exist. If a used glass is all that is available that is what you have to install.

Like Dan said above...the statement that "there could be an incompatibility" in the urethanes makes EVERY single aftermarket installation WRONG. If the old thane is incompatible...it is incompatible whether its on the glass, the body or both.

AGRSS Officers and Standard Committee Members

OFFICERS
Cindy Minon-Ketcherside, Chairperson, JC's Glass, Phoenix, AZ
Robert Birkhauser, Secretary-Treasurer, Auto Glass Specialists, Madison, WI
Russ Corsi, Individual Member, Pittsburgh, PA
Jean Pero, Mygrant Glass, Denver, CO
Deb Levy, AGRR Magazine, Stafford, VA
Joel Timmons, Diversified Glass Services Inc., Rochester Hills, MI
Carl Tompkins, Sika Corp., Spokane, WA

MEMBERS OF THE STANDARDS COMMITTEE
Steve Wilaniskis, ADCO Products, Michigan City, MI
Bob Beranek, Automotive Glass Consultants, Sun Prairie, WI
Brian Burkart, Auto Glass Journal, New York, NY
Roy Tarcea, Autostock Distribution, British Columbia
Sherry Stallings, Binswanger Glass, Memphis, TN
Rodger Pickett, Cindy Rowe Auto Glass, Harrisburg, PA
Scott Owens, Council for Auto Glass Safety, Lake Katrine, NY
Charles Turiello, Diamond Glass Co., Columbus, OH
Joe Renzi, Eftec North America, Troy, MI
Bill Castleberry, Essex ARG, Dayton, OH
Chuck Bibbiano, Glass America, Chicago, IL
Thom Inman, Glass Doctor Techical Services, Burnsville, MN
Glen Moses, Individual Member, Sultan, WA
Carl Jolliff, Jolliff Glass, Peoria, IL
Bud Oliver, National Auto Glass Specifications International (NAGS), San Diego, CA
Leo Cyr, National Glass Association, Gulf Breeze, FL
Steve Coyle, Performance Achievement Group, Madison, WI
Jason Wright, Pilkington, Columbus, OH
Alan Dumbris, PPG Industries, Pittsburgh, PA
Dino Lanno, Safelite Glass Company, Columbus, OH
Mark Formentini, Serf Associates, Frankfort, IL
Carl Tompkins, Sika Corp., Spokane, WA
Steve Crawley, Sommer & Maca, Cicero, IL
Ken Kosel, 3M Company, St. Paul, MN
Rod Watson, Visteon-Carlite, Allen Park, MI
Mark Haeck, Main Street Software, Belleville, MI

Well from the list webmaster provided it kind of gives me a sneaky suspicion that most of them don't have ALOT of hands on experience. I'm sure they have the basics, but it would surprise me if they were really up to speed with your average everyday auto glass installer.

This was the biggest problem I had when I worked at the corporate glass chains...twenty five bureacrats for every installer...all of whom THINK they know more about your job then you do. Last time I looked they didn't offer college degrees in Auto Glass Installation.

I'm really not sure what the point is that you're trying to make. I'm not trying to start anything or be confrontational but if you guys think that AGRSS needs to be manned by volunteers with years and years of hands on experience, give them a call ... I'm sure they'd be glad to have you join their effort. Or just contact any of those people and share your thoughts and ideas with them. I know that they are ready to listen to you guys.

I respect you guys that post in this forum but I can't respect using this as an arena to criticize a volunteer organization who feel compelled to selflessly devote their time to something that is making an impact on the industry. Just posting in this forum isn't going to bring about change. Don't get me wrong. A lot of good has come from this forum and I salute all of you who make it a regular part of your day to stop by and keep up with what is going on and contribute. But before you critique or criticize something, stop and ask yourself - what have I done to better this industry? I'm pretty sure that all of those folks listed work full time jobs and have families and many of them are involved with other organizations and associations.

Not a sermon, just a thought.

I'm going back into my cave now.

can one of the agrss guys clarify this issue? if there are any reading this. i would like to know what i should do. should i just refer this job out to another glass shop and not worry about it?

BQA - Have you tried going to the agrss site and using the contact link to email them? They will usually get back to you in the next day or two.

I wasn't really trying to critisize AGRSS, just making an across the board comment on something I have noticed in organization like this in several industries. No offense intended.

I will try to clear this up for you guys give me a day or two. I will contact some of the people I know on the agrss board and also the IGA board to put some heads together and see what the most current actions are.

thanks!

Sounds good to me NW IL AG. Clarity is definitley needed.

Don't be afraid, Your now an independent. Make a decision, You really do not need the board of directors to ok it. Dam, Who do you guys answer to anyway?

I'm all for AGRSS and its guidelines. What I'm against is being told what to do. We have become a society of followers. How many of you have joined?
The fees for AGRSS are $225.00 for the first year and $200.00 per year after that. What do you get for that?
Where does the money go? Is this a nonprofit orgianization? If all the people on the board are volunteers why do they charge to join? If your a member of the board do you have to pay dues? The IGA is nonprofit that is why I never joined. How are they going to make me a profit when they don't.

Steve C. is one guy I've tried to stump over the years with many questions like this (used glass) and many, many others. I know for a fact the knowledge he has runs very deep, with several years installing as well- I think the group looks very well rounded in general... I assume the problem we have with agrss is the real world scenario's we face on a daily basis.

I think of the standard as the "ideal" guide... It points us in the right direction, but sometimes we may have to tweek it a bit, just like they will more than likely ammend an occasional technique or two.

I am in compliance, but not a member (yet). They will have to prove to me the "bang for the buck" will be there. It doesn't get me anything for being a member yet- I have to pay to say I do things the right way? A lot of the glass shops who are members of agrss have horible reputations in the industry. But I guess another window sticker would be nice... you know how much the kids like stickers!!!

agrss is non-profit and your dues go towards public awareness and the day to day operations of agrss. that is what i was told.
to me $225 is not much about 1.5 w/s, the nice thing is you can send your customers to www.safewindshields.com and they will see your shop listed there. that site works good for getting the safety point across. especially on customers you are trying to convince to pay a little more for quality. they get some info that hasn't came from the guy selling them the more expensive part.
i dropped my membership for a year after being one for 2 years because i didn't feel they were doing anything for me, but they aren't designed to. they are more for consumer awareness and to provide a standard to guide us. you can also get brochures to give to your customers that explain some of the common problems with replacements and what they should look for.
i just renewed mine again recently because i finally talked to one of the agrss reps and they explained more about it.

Yes the AGRSS fliers and the mirror tags are very nice. To us they are worth the $225 alone. We have been pushing customers to the safewindshields.com site as well, with great success.

Why does everyone seem to think they have to get something back for their $225 dollars. What do you want a check for $500 saying "thanks for joining AGRSS"? It is an investment in the safety cause, that is what you get. You get to help build and focus attention on an issue we all discuss on this board everyday, SAFETY!!!

Is joining AGRSS going to make you rich, probably not. Is joining AGRSS going to put an undue burden on your company, probably not. But it will help build public awareness and I assure you it helps re-enforce YOUR commitment to safety in your customers eyes.

A year ago not one customer in our area ever asked about AGRSS or any certifications. But now about 10% of our customers are asking for one or both. We teach them to ask the actual installer for his NGA wallet card (every NGA certified installer is provided a dated card) before letting ANY installer touch their car. We teach them to go to safewindshields.com and glass.org for important safety guidelines and questions to ask their glass shop. Both sites also have shop locators so they can verify if the shop they are thinking of using is actually a member or certified.

Until consumers DEMAND safety our current industry battles will continue. Consumers are the only ones that can drive change in our industry and the insurance industry.

Will enough consumers care? That is what we are all waiting to find out.

Whats wrong with used door glass, quarterlite, body glass and rear backlites ?

The rest of the car is already used and drives on used parts.

We install used or China made glass everyday for insurance work. We prefer the used glass with factory mouldings or clips.

In fact we import stocks of used glass, so we have in stock when the jobs come up for better profit margin.

This way the customers car is returned to it's pre-loss condition.

Also, often some glass isn't available for immediate delivery from franchise dealers. Guess which glass company gets the job, when the customer doesn't have to wait.

In the USA who says you have to use new glass for insurance work ? ( We always use new front windscreens ). If this is the case I think you guys have lost your freedom.

Get the profit back into your industry.

I'm not a member yet, but I'm not opposed to joining. Its just something I haven't got around to doing yet.

You guys who are sending your customers to safewindshield.com might want to be careful...not only is your shop listed (if your are a member) but your competitors are also listed. What happens when they see Diamond Auto Glass listed and realize Diamond quoted them $50 (or more) less then you did? Your quality speech just became a waste of breath because afterall...Diamond is listed to...that makes them compliant and safe right?

I have always been leary about putting up membership dues to all of these organizations because in my experience there is rarely a benefit. Most people don't know what AGRSS or NGA or IGA means...you can sticker your van up all you want, but does anyone really care?

Just my two cents.

Oh...and to the one who said we have become a society of followers you are 100% CORRECT!!! I COULD NOT AGREE MORE!!!

I make all the decisions for my business...everyday...all day.

I don't put in alot of used parts because there is very little money in it in my area. Occasionally I do one for a good account, but even thats rare.

nzdownunder, in most markets here in the states there is little profit for putting in used glass. Were I am do it yourselfers will go get used and a tube of silicone, like they do in the Dakota's, and slap it in with that! Also there are enough fools to install so cheap why bother with new when some dummy will do it for 25 or 50 over the cast of the glass and give away the urethane to boot!!!! it's really a sad ordeal here, there are way too many installing that have no clue about business. The industry here is so devalued that we have little value to used glass, I have a small building full of it,,, ha ha ha your probably thinking I'm full of it!!!! oh well JMHO

Whats wrong with used door glass, quarterlite, body glass and rear backlite ?

The customers car drives on used parts.

We fit used glass and China made glass for insurance work everyday. We prefer used glass because it comes with factory mouldings, clips, etc.

We import used glass so we have it in stock on the shelf ready to go, for when a job for it may come up.
It is used to return the customers car to it's pre-loss condition.

The new franchise dealer won't always have the glass available. So you can guess which glass company gets the job when it's needed now.

In the USA who says you can't use used glass ? ( I don't mean front windscreens.) Have you guys lost your freedom.

Put the profit back into auto glass.

Hey don't get me wrong, I do some used door, quarters, and backs, I got a bunch of it. evertime someone is throwing the stuff away I end up with it. I'm also involved in all the area demolition derby's in my county so I get more used glass then I can get rid of. Also I have a good repore with alot of scrap yards and send alot of customers to them and can go cut out about whatever I need. So I get most my used stuff for little or nothing or free, so it's all profit, when you get a call for it, but like I said, it's so devalued here it's gotten to be NOT WORTH IT!! gud day mate

Sorry guys I posted a second message in error. Didn't think it went through, I now see there's a second page.

How can there be no money in used glass? We charge between US$80 to US$1200 equivilent per piece when it's not immediately available. Plus installation.

Some of those encapsulated privacy tint backlites or rear body glasses are expensive. We just did a 96 Honda Odyssey with privacy tint rear tailgate glass for US$750.

Who dictates to you what price to charge for used with insurance ? You have your price structure from NAGS is that correct ?

I am interested in this. I see your forums about it getting harder to make a profit in auto glass.

Why should used auto glass be sold cheaply just because it is used. If it is fit for purpose, does the same job as a new piece, meets all the safety requirements, why shouldn't you get a greater profit. Satisfying the customer quickly and efficiently while saving the insurance company money.

I don't know, maybe your buy price from your glass wholesalers is so cheap you don't guys don't have to look harder for profit. Your glass wholesalers all seem very efficient.

NZ,

Let me try and clarify what we are talking about.

We are talking about body shop work (removing the glass, letting the body shop fix the car and then re-installing the glass into the car). The body shops of course want this done as cheaply as possible and in a lot of markets the bigger corporate auto glass companies are doing it so cheaply that to independents like myself it is a waste of time because there is so little profit in it at those prices. No one tells us what to charge, but in order to get the work we have to at least be competitive with the competition.

As far as supplying used glass to customers you are correct...that is still as profitable as new glass. We are speaking of LABOR work only.

Hope that helps.

AGN

You can get a college degree in auto glass!

check it out......

http://diplomaguide.com/articles/Auto_Body_Repair_Technician%3A_Career_Diploma_Description.html

If one auto glass urethane manufacturer's product is not fully compatible with another auto glass urethane manufacturer's fully cured product they shouldn't be recognized by AGRSS or allowed to pass any other type of test they are subjected to. Maybe then we could learn from the urethane manufacurers chemical engineers instead of their lawyers.

Thats funny. I don't think I've ever met anyone that majored in that before. Most just kind of fell into it and started doing it.

L.W. If your hypothesis is true, how do we know what urethane brand to use on any vehicle? What does GM, Ford, Chry/Benz, and all of the foreign manufacturers use? Toyota urethane is soft compaired to Porsche urethane. Are GM foreign plants using the same as US plants??? Are we using noncompatible urethanes by installing with one brand of urethane. Come on AGRSS how about some answers here. If Dow is OEM and I use Sika will it work properly?

set standards are more of a help than a hindrance, but they cannot possibly cover every possible situation, so they are closer to guidelines rather than rules. especially when there's not enough info to determine compliance - did the trainee tech from some other shop who replaced the w/s last year use the proper thane???

if they are followed consistently, however, the standards may help defend you - when things go wrong, the 1st question will be "Were the proper procedures followed?" If you can answer yes, that could help lay the blame elsewhere.

I am just saying that they all should be compatible with the other as long as one is fully cured. I think having and following a standard is great. The urethane manufacturers aren't ever going to give us any strait answers beyond don't mix chemicals untill they have to admit that their products are compatable with each other or that they have to produce them in such a way that they are.

Have you ever been told by a urethane co to not use there products on vehicles A,B, or C????? I didn't think so. If this is so they must be compatable.

A simple question by bqa turned into a maelstrom of controversy.

If I might make a polite suggestion, rather than simply look at a previous thread reply that has taken a jet-propelled goose into the depths of the uncharted stratosphere, refer back to the original question and address that question specifically.

The way I figure it, if used glass is the ONLY possibility after making ****ed sure that used glass is the ONLY possibility, then used glass is the ONLY possibility short of the customer either selling the vehicle as is or driving it sans windshield.

The question of standards and who sets them is one hell of a topic in itself.

Many of us look at a specific question posed or a specific topic posed and find ourselves eventually trapped in some cul de sac smack dab in the middle of La La land and discussing something totally unanswered and/or irrelevant to the original.

That isn't a thread. It's a bowl of ravioli.

Those few who wish to disagree might consider starting a new topic entitled "bowl of ravioli", contribute their opinions and those who agree can address that issue.

Just a thought.

Another heading for a potential topic.

Sounds good JIM. What is your preference for urethane?
How do you know if it works in all applications?

AGN Sorry I got the topic wrong.

We don't do the remove and refits of windscreens for the body shops as there is no profit in it. We can't even do it for the Body Shops we are friends with.

There are guys down here that do removal on first visit, then re-install on second visit for as low as US$55 total including urethane. Belron do it for about US$78, so we leave them to it.

So you guys definately get a better pay rate in the US.

Sounds like you guys have the same problem we have NZ.

You have to send a guy and van out two times to do a job that becuase of the competition you can only charge $65 US Dollars for. Not worth it.

You obviously are not AGRSS certified exp. In this business you need to be aware of all the current industry regulations if nothing else to cover your butt in a worse case event like a lawsuit. These standards set by AGRSS should not be taken lightly. They are very important for our business it is what is going to finally seperate the hacks from the quality ethic based installers.

Sorry! that was to be addressed to the end of the first page didn't see the second page