What are you charging for R&I's. We were 40 out 40 in, and 10 or 20 for urethane.

I tell them 100 per part . collect when it goes back in if I trust them . I'ts really not worth it but I do get the installs for new when they come through so its one of those take it or leave the whole account for somebody else.

book time is what they get, if they don't do it charge buy the flat rate.

50 out 75 in including urethane. Molding extra.
No breakage guarentee. Breakage is guarenteed on windshields.(know what I mean)
I also ask what the Ins is paying, some are tightwads like US Agencie's 35 per labor Hr.

Are you all still removing and re-installing used windshields??

We stopped doing that when AGRSS made their ruling. Unless it is a windshield we recently (within 3 months) installed and we know the urethane system used, we inform the customer or body shop a new windshield is required. It also allows us to fully warranty the parts in that case.

I thought once you removed a windshield it was considered "a used part"?

Interesting way to look at it.

Minimum of 50 to pull, 50 to install plus 15 per kit. This is the minimum as you gotta pay for the gas to get there twice. Pay your installer 1 hour of work each time. Plus you need to make some kind of profit for the company. Realistically it should be a minimum of $75 for pull or install just to make it worth the while. Heck you could be making more money on a full replacement! This is why I hate doing body shop work. If the body shop is billing Farmers you get screwed thanks to SGC only paying $90 for R&I's.

120.00 labor, 40.00 kit bottom line

How do any of you know the urethane system used on R&I's? And how do you know that your urethane system is compatible? Last I checked, not one urethane manufacturer will warranty their products in these applications.

Point is, are you all assuming a HUGE bombshell of liability just to save the insurance co. and/or the body shop a few $$??

I am just confused on this issue still, and appreciate any helpful or informative comments.

I don't even do this kind of work. It is way too much of a pain in the *** for way too little.

Occasionally I'll put in a used part for a dealership or someone of that nature, but even then they have to provide the part (already removed from whatever vehicle it was in) and I guarantee NOTHING.

Its just not a profitable venture in my area. D/T goes out and R&Rs things for $65. Thats $25 to take it out, $25 to put it back in and $15 for urethane.

I just can't make any money that way. Especialy if you consider that most R&Rs take more time then installing a new part.

ccc
"How do any of you know the urethane system used on R&I's? And how do you know that your urethane system is compatible? Last I checked, not one urethane manufacturer will warranty their products in these applications."

when you install a new part in an opening that has already been had once, twice , or a dozen times how do you know your urethane system is compatible?
which raises some questions.
is it safe to install more than one new w/s in the same vehicle, if you don’t know what aftermarket urethane was used the first time?
is there a difference between aftermarket urethane that appears to be well adhered to a piece of used glass vs. a used pinch weld?

whadoya think einstine

How do you know what urethane is compatible with the urethane that was in the vehicle you pulled the glass out of? I have never seen a tag or label on any car, new or used that says what urethane was used by the factory or an aftermarket installer. Does this mean all urethanes are compatible with any OEM urethane? I have never seen a disclaimer to not use urethane A with car B. So how do you know what urethane to use?
If all urethanes are compatable why can't you r&r and use any brand?

I'm with Lee.

If the urethanes we use weren't compatible with oems then we would be taking every car to the body shop to have all the thane removed before we could put a new windshield (or any other glass) in.

I persoanlly have never had a problem with urethane compatibility when installing a used glass. Diamond used to do that kind of stuff all the time when I worked for them.

We do not use "used glass" if it is brought to us. Just no way to know where it came from and what it has been thru. (not to mention we are not in the used glass business) If WE remove a windshield and there is no frit failure, bond failure or ANY other issues, we will put it back in. (OUR discretion)
ACCORDING TO SIKA, the urethane must be trimmed back, but not completely removed with a base to remain in contact to the glass. This is no different than what we do to the pinchweld.
SIKA has stated that the issue can be with the PRIMERS on the glass rather than the urethane which is why there must be a SOLID base of urethane left on the glass.
I would recommend you speak to your adhesive rep about this since as someone else stated, this could be a liability nightmare in the end. Whatever your rep says, GET IT IN WRITING!!!!! Words are worth nothing.

Have seen quite a few w/s's that have been replaced before.When it was time to strip the urethane it just pulled right off the old urethane,all the way around.
Is it contamination or un-compatability?

Syd,

I'm confused. ( not hard to do at my age )

If you clean all the old urethane off the used glass, then prime it with the correct primer, do you feel that there is still a question of proper adhesion?

Trimming down the old urethane on a used glass is what I always do. I never completely remove it. I trim it down using a straight edge razor. I then prime (activate) any area where there isn't urethane and I also prime (Sika 206) the body of the vehicle where necessary. In monst cases I then run the new bead on the glass directly over the old bead and set it in place.

Knock on wood, this has never been a problem for me. As far as liability goes the receipt I give the customer CLEARLY states that NOTHING is guaranteed or warrantied in the case of a used part. I also discuss this with the customer to be sure it has been brought to their attention.

I would also like to STRESS that this is NOT something I do everyday or even once a month! I only do it in the case of good account who wants a used part installed because the cost of a new part is prohibitive (i.e. Subaru legacy backglasses).

If some guy calls me out of the yellow pages who wants a used part installed FORGET IT!

AGN I understand your points. I think however if that windshield ever did come out of the vehicle in an accident I doubt that your "disclaimer" will hold up in a lawsuit, as per the legal advise we have received. We are the professionals and should know the "best practices" and "standards" in your chosen profession.

I am not scolding you or anyone, but rather encouraging all of you to seek legal advice on the matter. Perhaps there is a "proper" way to write your "disclaimer" that will help reduce your liability.

We have chosen to NOT install used windshield or perform R&R or R&I for many reasons.

As someone else stated I would also GET IT IN WRITING from your urethane manufacturer, not the local rep or salesman, that states they warranty their product in these applications, even if you are leaving 2mm or previous urethane on the glass and body.

You will never get anything in writing from a manufacturer in regards to this. For them to do so would mean the possibilty of the liabilty to become theirs. Not likely-IMHO

Long Island guy, the answer is YES, according to SIKA. They have clearly stated that they do not recommend re-use if the urethane is removed from the glass. If removed, SIKA says to use a new windshield. Like AGN, we do not do much of it anymore with the exception of body shops/accounts. If there is ANY question, it gets a new windshield. Bly, Sika has already provided us with this information in writing!! If you are using SIKA, push and push your SIKA rep until they do the same. Under no circumstance will our company do anything of this nature without confirmation IN WRITING!! There is too much at stake to not do this.
This is all coming down the channels to me from my corporate office but I have also discussed this in person with our SIKA rep.
As far as any disclaimers, I also agree with CCC that as professionals, it is OUR responsibility to know the proper procedures. This is where a good relationship and communication with the adhesive/primer mfg is key since they are the ones that need to give the recommended practice on the proper use of their products.
On a similar note. I had an interesting conversation with our SIKA rep about the DOT 563 chinese glass we are seeing from Pilk, PPG and everyone else. There always seems to be excessive "oils" and other contaminants on the frit. We have been back and forth on whether or not to use a scotch brite pad LIGHTLY to clean the surface before priming. (I also heard a rumor that Safelite techs were being trained to "scrub" with Aktivator which is also not approved by Sika.) I was told by one of the bosses and the SIKA rep we should not be doing it. This is after we were told do it several months ago and then told to stop by SIKA when they saw someone doing it. Then it started again because of the Aktivator 'beading' after application. I showed the boss and our rep on a 563 we had there and they couldn't give me a straight answer on what to do since they see the issue and the last they both knew, Sika was not recommending it. Well, long story short. Within minutes, the call was in to the SIKA engineers and they are working on an answer as to how to deal with this. Once again, we will need this IN WRITING and I suggest everyone do the same for any of these major issues no matter who your adhesive mfg is.

Where's Bob Beranek on these issues?

just got a calll... same issue except not a body shop.


04 Dodge Ram, backglass

Conversation as follows:

Customer: I have a used backglass i'd like to get installed

glass shop: Really? thats to bad. I may have could of given you a better job with a new part and perhaps better pricing.

Customer: XXX (you know who) says they'll do it for 65. but can't get to it until Saturday.

ME: Yeah, i mean i can install it. 85, and i'll clean up your car from where the tempered is still laying.

Customer: Why is there os much difference in price?

Me: You got a couple of hours? Thats the million dollar question. Think of it per labor hour. Do you think your local dealership is going to charge you 25 per to inspect your vehicle?

Customer: It just seems to high. 85 for an hour and a half labor?

me: Yes sir, isn't that a fair price?

Customer: No.

and the beat goes on...

OK, I pulled the Sika bulletin. It looks like it was in response to the AGRSS interpretation on the issue. I believe the Sika and AGRSS bulletins go hand in hand and should be looked at as a whole since it seems that AGRSS is more specific on the issue and Sika just takes it a step further to their specific products.

After I just typed the entire bulletin, I just went to Sika's website to see if by chance they have it there and sure enough, they do. This link will take you to the Sika training manual. (caution for dial up people, large file) Go to page 14 and there it is, in writing.

http://www.sikaindustry.com/ipd-Tech-Training-Manual-04.pdf

Here is the link to the AGRSS interpretation.
http://www.agrss.com/documents/salvageglass.doc

Home run SYD!!!

Short answer is if you do not know what brand and product the adhesive is on a used part, even SIKA doesn't permit their products to be used in this application. Even if you are leaving old urethane on the glass and pinchweld (which common sense says is the same, 2mm here and 2mm there) they do not permit it unless you are certain the existing urethane on the used glass part is a SIKA product.

Just be careful everyone!! In todays business climate we are all under pressure to perform services that we may know are not in the customers best interest. Just remember the customer rarely knows the details. Stand up for yourself, your profession, and most importantly the customers safety. Help them to understand why it is not in their best interest. Some customers will simply not care, there is nothing you can do about that. Maybe that is not the type of person you want to have as a customer anyway.

Just a thought.

Derek--I would like to ask that customer what a fair price for a plumber is. Around here they charge 60 dollars just to come to your house for 10 min. The dealerships charge a minimum 50 dollars just to check a fault code. That takes what? 10 minutes? Why do custmers expect glass shops to give away labor, but not any other businesses?

I'm tired of this stuff too.

I had a guy rackin' my balls today about a used windshield. These used car dealers will do ANYTHING to save a buck. This guy buys quite a bit from me so I was loathe to tell him NO, but thats what had to be done. I'm not going to do something that is going to be unsafe and further more I'm not going to put the time and effort into cutting out two windshields, trimming down old 'thane on both the body and the used glass and then finally installing it. All for the SUPER HIGH price of $65. No thanks. I'll take a long lunch instead or make some sales calls.

How is installing a used glass part any different then installing a new glass in a vehicle that has already had a replacement windshield? Do you know what urethane the last guy used, what if he scraped it down to paint and primered with his/her primer and laid his/her bead. Would you then tell the customer that due to AGRSS standards you cannot install the new glass cause you don't know what urethane was used, or do YOU scrape it down to paint and start from scratch? I understand that the used glass part will have unknown product on it, but isn't it possible the vehicle itself could have unknown product?

I've talked to my DOW rep and he said that as long as you have a FRESH(within 2 hrs) cut bead of urethane on the vehicle and the glass(assumming used) then he said your bond will be sound, he reiterated, that it HAD to be a FRESH cut bead.

My point is, as long as your procedure is done correctly and your product bonds to whatever it is you're gluing to, then liability wise isn't your buttox covered. If the unknown product fails that is not your fault. Yeah,they are going to come after you, but if you install a glass in a virgin vehicle and the same thing happens they will still come after you. The proof of whose fault it is will lie with whomever can show exactly WHERE the failure occurred, ie: frit failure, paint failure, adhesive failure(yours or theirs) etc.

Ok I've ran on and on and on now, nuff for now.
Have a nice day!!

From what I have found, if you know where the part originated from the part can be used (No pun intended). The original question was what do you charge for body shops for R&I's. One of my shops wants me to drop my prices so they can make their 30% markup. An example, 2006 Toyota highlander 1/4 glass, book time 2.0 hours including removing the interior. I would normally would charge 40 out 40 in and 10 for urethane. So they can make their 30 *******% I have to drop my prices to 64 plus 10. Does anybody else have the same problem?

LilJohn,

$74 sounds like a deal in my market!

The bigger corp glass companies in my area go around doing them for $65 TOTAL and LESS!!!

Thats why I don't do alot of this kind of work!

WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE IF YOU ARE BONDING TO THE EURETHANE ON A USED W/S OR THE TRIMMED DOWN BED
ON A VEHICLE BODY? IF YOU CAN'T BOND TO EURETHANE ON A GLASS HOW CAN YOU BOND TO EURETHANE ON A VEHICLE? THERE IS NO WAY TO KNOW FOR SURE WHAT BRAND OF GLUE YOU ARE BONDING TO. THE QUESTION IS IT'S OK TO GLUE BACK TO AN UNKNOWN BED IN THE VEHICLE BUT NOT ON A GLASS.

Thats what everyone wants to know J.

I can't see how it makes a difference either way.

As stated before as long as you know where the part came from it can be used. The other question I have what percentage of parts do you save at body shops. My company gets better dollar because we save around 98% of the parts. The companys who price cheap R&I's don't save many parts.

Has anyone had problems from body shops getting grief about the inability to do R&I's do to new standards. I hate to loose my body shop work but also want to uphold the agrss standards. One thing I noticed from past discussions is the fact about the urethane compatibility. I use Dow and it is approved to bond to any OEM adhesive. The problem you run into is not so much with the body side as the glass side. It makes no differance what type of urethane was used if it was not prepped or applied correcttly. That is the main issue. What has been told to me is that urethane bonds best to (uncontaminated) urethane. One thing that was mentioned earlier is a major no no is priming over the urethane. You never want to do this. The primer is meant for metal or glass except for encaps. and mouldings etc. It is still ok to install used glass and R&I glass if you can answer yes to the standards check-list. If someone would like a copy of this check-list faxed to them just email me @ LUDKE8@aol.com

I charge $125 for R&I but don't get many (which is fine with me) cuz there are enough idiots in town that will do one for $80. I never could quite understand charging so little to cut out a windshield when it takes twice as long - at least - to get it out without breaking it.

Here's another good one for ya. Had a friend of a friend call and ask if I'd install an 1168 for him, he had the windhield. Told him I'd do it for $100, ended up charging him for a molding too. He brought in an SCG windshield and told me he had got it from a friend of his for $100. I had to laugh a little when I told him I could have got him OEM AND saved him some money. Maybe he'll learn next time.

nw il, I had the dow rep tell me that yes it is ok to put 5404 on urethane. What do you put on PAAS(pre-applied adhesive system((urethane)))?!

Goin' Broke,

I love that example! I can't count how many times I have had the same thing happen over the years!

They end up paying $200 for a job you could have done for $175 all day long and put $125 in your pocket!

Now i see why your goin Broke

Glasstech IL, I would double check with your rep to make sure he is wanting you to put the 5404 onto urethane. That is a new one on me. Urethane to urethane is the best bond. Even when priming the pinch weld you want to avoid getting the primer on the pinch weld. I would check with your rep, because he is the one to back you up if there is a problem not me. I would like to know what he has to say though and relay it to mine and see if the stories match. Thanks!

I was also told that the 5404sa is used to re-activate the pass system.

According to Sika's (website) manual *.pdf .
It says use Sika activator to 'prime' the PAAS.
As for pinchweld primer (206 Sika), i have used a test here in shop to confirm that Urethane to Urethane is the best bond. I made a 'urethane sandwich' with 2 pieces of FRESH 'thane and ran a bead between them. Let them set over a weekend.
ULTRA ADHESION!!! once you cut the 'sandwich' you can only tell the layers from a slight color variation.
While with another 'urethane sandwich' i put pinchweld primer on the fresh cut 'thane. (THIS IS TO SIMULATE most OF THE JOBS I'VE SEEN COME IN after SOMEONE ELSE HAS CHANGED THE 'SHIELD). i leave a little bit of the sandwich with no urethane so I can have a 'pull tab'. THE PRIMED URETHANE sandwich JUST TEARS off ..
Urethane to Urethane. for best adhesion.

http://www.sikaindustry.com/ipd-Tech-Training-Manual-04.pdf


Check pages 15 (for PASS) & 22 (for NOT priming urethane). but the entire .pdf is a wealth of info if ya use Sika.

I had a car dealer tell my friend in stl who owns a shop today that he could get a dw1265 w/ molding for cheaper than $105 there is no friggin way the molding is like $20

I get 40 in 40 out , but no glue, glad to see everyone is not bending over for these WHINING body shops.

I'm sorry I didn't mean to imply that my Dow rep said he wanted 5404 on the cut urethane, I meant that he said if you did get it on it then you will still be okay. He did say that if a fresh cut bead of urethane only remain "fresh" for a couple of hours then the pores close up. If for some reason you cannot lay glue back on top of the "fresh" cut within the two hours then he recommends skimming the cut again to make it fresh, and if for some reason you can't skim it anymore then to use the 5404 to promote adhesion. He was VERY ADAMENT about urethane to urethane being the absolute BEST bond.

According to my dow fixed glass installation guide;It says to apply betaprime 5404sa to the encapsulation or PAAS surface.