Opus

Apr 29, 08 - 10:35 AM

AGRSS and Insurance

Heard an interesting item that is being strongly considered for implementation.

A major insurance company will require AGRSS registration for the glass company doing its installs by the end of the year.

I do not have any other real facts about this situation. I do not know if one has to submit AGRSS approved labeling on its invoices for payment or anything else other than using its AGRSS number.

I'm also aware of all of the holes that exist with companies that subscribe to AGRSS but do not always adhere to stated practices.

However I think it is good thing for some outside body to demand a higher standard although it could also be said that it could be considered a legal CYA attempt by the insurer to further shield itself from a liability lawsuit in the case that a bad install by an approved shop would involve them as well.

SBOK

Apr 29th, 2008 - 10:46 AM

Re: AGRSS and Insurance

Yes it is happening very soon and their are going to be some p******off glass people when it goes public. I wish I could give details but I have given my word not to until after next week.
I believe that this will be the first of several insurance companies to establish similar programs for their glass replacement.
I will tell you that it does go even deeper than just AGRSS.

Jess

Apr 29th, 2008 - 11:16 AM

Re: AGRSS and Insurance

I don't think it sounds so bad; if someone would step up and regulate, the hackers would only have the cash people looking for the cheapest price they can find...

irv

Apr 29th, 2008 - 11:27 AM

Re: AGRSS and Insurance

its just words written on paper. it doesn't mean your installer is going to follow along. just trying to get more of your profits and i am sure belsafe is a big contributor to agrss. this will help push more of the little guys out of they way

Opus

Apr 29th, 2008 - 11:55 AM

Re: AGRSS and Insurance

What is sad is that there is no real way of ever guaranteeing a proper install. That is one of the major problems of this industry.

It can start from materials used. Is FYG or XYZ better or worse than Mopar, AP Tech or Carlite. Moldings? dealer, aftermarket or generic??

What about urethane? Is Sika the same as CRL?

I'm not a fan of corporate production based bonuses. yea you could activate your glass in shop before you leave but in handling it does one contaminate it? Pinchweld primers Does one wait for the dry times in either hot or cold weather.

Does an auction car deserve the same treatment at install as one's insurance agent's? In theory, it should. In real life.....I would bet I'm crazy to think that they are installed as equal.

Cowl-jumping?? Don't' get me started.

Climate and weather and its effect upon business practices vary hugely in this country.

It gets down to conscience of the installer and probably the company that pays him. Still there can be a vast difference between the two. Both can be put in very bad positions by the other.

AGRSS can be effective if:

1) it markets itself to the public as a label of trust and competency
2) It polices its members.
3? Punishment of violations of AGRSS polices means something.

I'm sure I've missed something but my reply is too long as it is

ccc

Apr 29th, 2008 - 12:18 PM

Re: AGRSS and Insurance

Great post OPUS!

Sglass

Apr 29th, 2008 - 12:54 PM

Re: AGRSS and Insurance

FORCED to pay for something we can't pass along to the Ins. Co. AGAIN.
Tired of other people lining their pockets with my $$$ I earn.

.

Apr 29th, 2008 - 1:28 PM

Re: AGRSS and Insurance

Get the dollars right and in line with inflation and AGRSS will have a line waiting to sign up. just another way to steal from the poor and give to the rich.....BS,.........BAD TIMING. The are way to many dictators in this country running the show. Agrss works behind to many closed doors just like the others.

cold knife

Apr 29th, 2008 - 1:59 PM

Re: AGRSS and Insurance

Just another I-CAR, NGA cirt, i bet a high school girl can get this cirt. just pay up the money and she is AGRSS cirt.

Mark1

Apr 29th, 2008 - 2:39 PM

Re: AGRSS and Insurance

Doubtful.

Ties the insurer to the liability of the replacement.

Bypasses the network liability "buffer".

Hint Hint

Apr 29th, 2008 - 2:57 PM

Re: AGRSS and Insurance

Here is some help but could there still be one additional party involved that noone will expect???? Stay tuned....Same Bat Time.....Same Bat Channel.

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2008/03/25/081878.html

http://www.motortrend.com/features/newswire/91/35151/

.

Apr 29th, 2008 - 3:42 PM

Re: AGRSS and Insurance

If the insurance companies would quit dictating price, We would not be having this conversation. We will sell and install auto glass and they can sell and service insurance. The way it should be. It's great they care about safety, It's just to bad they will not pay for it. JMHO

tx-boy

Apr 29th, 2008 - 4:46 PM

Re: AGRSS and Insurance

i was reading how one insurance company just "DONATED" money to agrss. more like bribed.

Webmaster

Apr 29th, 2008 - 4:50 PM

Re: AGRSS and Insurance

I love the way that you people who don't have a clue have all the answers and know everything. I guess the only thing you don't know is how to successfully compete in business.

scott

Apr 29th, 2008 - 5:10 PM

Re: AGRSS and Insurance

so how much does agrss charge to be a memeber? i couldnt find a price on there site. but i notice on the application its gear more towards big companies. what about guy's like me owner/operator?

vt.glass shop

Apr 29th, 2008 - 5:43 PM

Re: AGRSS and Insurance

To me it's like paying your local police officer,a certain amount a year,just cuz you are a law abiding citizen and follow all the rules of the road.
AGRSS is a great idea and should be followed.
Just should not have to pay to follow those rules.

Why not add shops that do follow AGRSS,but are not paying to be certified,into the validation inspections.If they pass they become AGRSS certified,if they fail,lessons to be learned.

Yes I know,money,money money.We all need it,as does AGRSS to keep going foward.It's just that they want too much money.
Do mechanics and body shop people need to verify all the ansi #s they go thru?And pay to be able to say so?

.

Apr 29th, 2008 - 7:28 PM

Re: AGRSS and Insurance

Webmaster

I have been in this business for 37 successful years and you have No clue what this business has been through for the last 15 years. It has been stripped of all profits and I do not know of one shop that did it on thier own. It was forced upon us by big business and greed. And we have been hung out and decieved by every program that has come along. JMHO

J Armstead

Apr 29th, 2008 - 8:00 PM

Re: AGRSS and Insurance

I have to agree with most of "negative" responses.

AGRSS is just another I-CAR.

If the insurance companies paid for proper repairs and were truly concerned about safety versus cost that would be another story... however, it has been demonstrated time and time again that insurance companies and the networks permit steering and unsafe procedures for the sake of saving money.

Anybody that believes otherwise is just a fool.

Sglass

Apr 29th, 2008 - 8:20 PM

Re: AGRSS and Insurance

Sorry Webmaster but I believe you are out of line. I have been in business for 33 Years and surviving. You are not one of us. Some of us speak from experience you speak from opinion.

xs

Apr 29th, 2008 - 8:32 PM

Re: AGRSS and Insurance

We follow AGRSS guidelines.And its just that guidelines.its not a tool or materials.Its just like being ISO9000 certified..Doesnt make any sense to pay money just be certified in what you already have practiced or just common sense installations...Our NGA certifications will be expired at the end of the year,Im really considering letting it go..And what will AGRSS do for us???Besides collect our money that is????My insurance work has dropped dramtically in the last 5 years and I really dont see it picking up again like it was...Due to the insurance companies writting higher ded in excess of $1000.00...So they can pretty much go scratch with thier $10.00 for additional repair and doing mobile work in excess of 50 miles from our location with gas prices the way there are expected....and using 1 hour SDAT urethane...I too will be using Titan 660 on thier cars also(no offense AGN)lol......

atech

Apr 29th, 2008 - 10:12 PM

Re: AGRSS and Insurance

I also agree with the negatives on this one.

Will "consumer choice" go out the window? Or is this something that will affect the "rotation/referral" shops that don't drink the kool-aid?

Webbie- No offence but I disagree with your premise. Sounds like someone is pressuring you on this one, didn't sound like your usual tone and verbage... maybe with smilies we could have come to a different conclusion? Just Kidding!

potato*

Apr 29th, 2008 - 11:07 PM

Re: AGRSS and Insurance

Another hoop most of us will have to jump through if necessary.
. Will the customer be required by the ins. co. to respect the sdat.
. If there is a major glass recall, where will the liability lie? Techs,Dists, Insrs,??
. Sure, safer is better, but this is clearly a tool to eliminate some auto glass businesses. Are we sure their aim will be true?
.
.
.
Master Web Sir, I Believe You Need To Elaborate, If We Are To Succeed. Thank You.

Opus

Apr 30th, 2008 - 12:05 AM

Re: AGRSS and Insurance

I've been reading your responses, Mr Armstead pretty much sums up the shop owner side of my personality.

I agree with much of how one-sided things are getting when shop owners are being forced to join AGRSS or other associations and by doing so get little monetary value in return i.e. some sort of compensation or something in the form of higher renumeration. For that I have no real retort because I have sympathy with that position. Not with just insurance jobs but every job we put our names on.

The mushy " I don't want my child or anybody driving a car with an unsafe windshield" side of me thinks another way

The basic problem we face in AGR is stopping bad installs and preventing those who cut corners from installing. There are few fields of endeavors or crafts that can shield those who are frauds or just are badly incompetent as exists in auto glass installs. Big or little stores, it doesn't matter, a bad install is usually hidden from view and the effects usually are not apparent immediately.
How do we cull the wheat from the chaff? Stop and prevent as many bad shops and bad installers as possible?
In reality, the battle has to be fought on many fronts. We have debated many proposed solutions and again the fact remains is that there will always be a method to get around a rule, a regulation or a law. Americans have been doing that since the Boston Tea Party.
AGRSS has to mean something first. It has to become accepted by the public more so than by an insurer. You ask a civilian what I-Car means and you'll get blank stares.

We have to start somewhere. As a group, we will have some power to choose what organization's blessings we will want to pay for to validate our existence.

Webmaster

Apr 30th, 2008 - 9:33 AM

Re: AGRSS and Insurance

I take exception to remarks about AGRSS being paid bribes. I know and personally work with many of the hard working people who selflessly contribute time and resources to AGRSS to try to help your industry. And then people come on here and their only contribution is to use this forum to bad mouth and make accusations about something they know little or nothing about or have never cared enough about to ask what they can to do to help. Its just sick. I'm not trying to start an arguement and I'll freely admit I was having one of those days yesterdays. I guess that post touched a nerve.

I generally try to refrain from posting. I like to pop on here from time to time to maintain a presence. I've been monitoring this forum for nearly four years now. I see every post that goes up. It wears on you after a while. Constant complaining about this and that. If its not an association its a corporation. It cycles continuously.

There is still a lot that needs to be done to get AGRSS to where it needs to be. Making unfounded remarks does not serve that end. AGRSS consists of business owners and industry members like yourselves who have full time jobs but still manage to find time to contribute. Understandably, not everyone is able to do that but instead of coming on this forum and complaining, contact a current board member and offer your feedback or ask if there is something you can do to help. Don't bad mouth the efforts of honest, hard working people.

tx-boy

Apr 30th, 2008 - 10:01 AM

Re: AGRSS and Insurance

the agrss has more than a long ways to go. for one the general public who this is really for doesnt have a clue who they are. i have worked for 2 shops that where agrss cert. and i have lots of bad things to say about both as far as installs go. so sorry if i dont jump on the pay money to someone so i can work bandwagon. JMHO

cold knife

Apr 30th, 2008 - 10:19 AM

Re: AGRSS and Insurance

Hay webbie, Not to down you any way but, Some of us have ben doing this a long time. We have seen this stuff come and go maney times, I think you have ben working with the agrss a littel to close and cant see from are eyes.
I rember whin NGA came out with the same stuff as AGRSS is doing now, they sed were going to cit all techs and that way you know you will have a good safe install. We are going to moniter them, I think that was in the early 90's Then they after a couple years they found out they whernt making money on it so they limited ther cert, for three years and make you get a new one , then they lost all creditablity when a 16 year old girl became a cirt master tech. Becouse she could tack the test, pass, and put up the money.
I have seen the list of shops that are AGRSS cirt, if they are realy conserned about safe installs and not money why are there distrubution locations AGRSS cirt they do not install glass

Webmaster

Apr 30th, 2008 - 10:57 AM

Re: AGRSS and Insurance

Remember - AGRSS is not a certification program. It is a standard. By registering with AGRSS you are saying that you perform all of your work in accordance with the safety standard. Unfortunately, no matter what you do there will always be those who lack integrity. I do believe that AGRSS is currently working on an audit system.

I think everyone would agree that there needs to be a standard. Getting everyone to abide by it seems to be the sticking point.

SBOK

Apr 30th, 2008 - 11:00 AM

Re: AGRSS and Insurance

webbie I didn't know you had that in you.way to jump off the fence and step up to the plate with your feelings.

Those of you that have any kind of open mind at all read this goofy little book. I think they even have an audio version of it for those of us that are to lazy to read.

Who Moved my Cheese http://www.whomovedmycheese.com/whomovedmycheese/

L.W.

Apr 30th, 2008 - 11:11 AM

Re: AGRSS and Insurance

"You fall down six times, stand up seven." Walt Wilkins

GO AGRSS

Webmaster

Apr 30th, 2008 - 11:13 AM

Re: AGRSS and Insurance

For the sake of my continued employment I probably shouldn't post stuff like that and whether I'd like to admit it or not, I was probably out of line for doing so. Driving home last evening I was regretting having done it.

Yesterday we were having major problems with our in house network server and that was working my last nerve, plus I had my regular work I needed to get done. I let my frustration get the better of me and clear thinking and sound judgement went out the window. My bad.

I have a desk calendar with quotes from the show "the office" and one of them mentioned that book. I think the character Michael said he read it but was disappointed because he thought it was going to be a mystery novel. I really need to start watching that show.

SBOK

Apr 30th, 2008 - 11:16 AM

Re: AGRSS and Insurance

Webbie is also correct about creating a standard. At least there is an accepted standard saying what is right and wrong. Something for those who do it right to back them up. As far as those who do it wrong they come and go by the hundreds here and people wanting something for nothing keep new ones coming in that have no integrity.

I haven't found an answer for that, they are just a thorn that has been in the industry ever since it was decided that to be "fair" one guy could back up in a truck and buy one windshield for almost the same price others buy 100 at a time. If he does the job correctly and charges correctly he is making good money, but most times he is low balling using the big company down the street as his excuse so then he cuts corners to makeup for the low price and the cycle continues.

AGRSS creates accountability, but those wihout integrity will never be accountable.
They do however know that the governement should be doing more for them and taking others peoples money to give them.

SBOK

Apr 30th, 2008 - 11:26 AM

Re: AGRSS and Insurance

webbie if everyone is afraid of the consequences of giving their opinion then the USA is in trouble. Then uninformed do it all the time because they have nothing to lose and they usually end up being "the squeaky wheel that gets the grease". I give you permission to do it to. Ha Ha

You are a part of this industry as much as I am. Just because you don't sell or install glass don't mean your opinion won't keep us all learning and moving forward.

tx-boy

Apr 30th, 2008 - 12:30 PM

Re: AGRSS and Insurance

not everyone that is an owner/operator is a lowballer or cuts corners. i get my accounts on quality and reputation not price. your trying to say big companys do the job right? the 2 big companys i worked for where agrss and did hack work thats why i quit and started my own.

SBOK

Apr 30th, 2008 - 1:31 PM

Re: AGRSS and Insurance

tx-boy

I don't know you and am not judging you.
Here is my question. Is this you?
From my above post
"As far as those who do it wrong they come and go by the hundreds here and people wanting something for nothing keep new ones coming in that have no integrity."

If this is not you then then please don't take offense to it. I am sharing my experience "here" where I am, not where you are.

My next paragraph mentions anyone being able to back up to the wholesaler. I have experienced a man on a bicycle with a windshield repair bridge and a tupperware cup of his repair resin" hitting up the used car lots for chip repairs. He would offer to do them for $10.00 and if they said no he would tell them he would do it for 5.00.
I have had installers that would buy a windshield from me for 90.00 because they didn't have it in stock and go install it at a car lot for 110.00 just to keep us from getting the job. They never realized that I made more off the glass than $20.00 and they did all the work, warranty, urethane, etc. These are the types of guys I am talking about.

My point being, I am not against the small guy if he is operating as a business person should, but here most just don't know how to run a business and unforunately they are only slightly better at doing installations.

Everyone needs to quit taking everything that is said as a personal attack on you unless someone has singled you out and come after you; then defend away or counter attack or whatever.

SBOK

Apr 30th, 2008 - 1:42 PM

Re: AGRSS and Insurance

tx-boy
one other thing. I in no way meant for that earlier post to sound like as you stated "trying to say big companys do the job right?"

Big, Small, Black, White, Brown, Red, Green, or Orange there will be some that do what I believe is right and some that don't. I will form my opinion on on what I believe as right. I am not judging anyone by size, color, etc.

tx-boy

Apr 30th, 2008 - 5:20 PM

Re: AGRSS and Insurance

it just sounded like thats what you meant. i know there are hacks that work out of there trucks.

i still dont think agrss will be able to weed out the hacks. it will be impossible. yes it would be nice but impossible.

what we really need is someone to fight the insurance companies, and to assasinate the low ballers.

AHAG

Apr 30th, 2008 - 6:35 PM

Re: AGRSS and Insurance

Oklahoma is a tough market you have a lot of fly by night, work out of the back of the ford taurus guys who will do it for $5 over cost (AGO) .

I have lost two dealer accounts becasue I have refused to JOIN AGRSS or to certify my guys through IGA or NGA. I will remove myself from Lynx when the start requiring me to be AGRSS . As many of you have heard me say in the past we are compliant with AGRSS and document and even take pictures of before and after that are attched to the invoices and filed away. I refuse to give my money to another industry group that is mostly made up of my compition and have some dumb sob come in and tell me my guys are not following AGRSS but my main problem is that AGRSS is more worried about helping the TPA's and Insurance companies than helping US .

If they are so worried about safety and compliance then maybe the insurance companies should all pay $20K to be AGRSS members and then allow the glass shops to join for a lessor fee of say $75. (lol). Why should we have to front the money to support AGRSS when they are working for the insurance companies to begin with.

the fixer

Apr 30th, 2008 - 6:51 PM

Re: AGRSS and Insurance

AGRSS was formed with all the right intentions, that said i challenge anyone to prove with out a doubt that all techs performing work under the guise of AGRSS are in compliance with all the standards at all times? Afterall this was the purpose and intent to begin with right? it was not formed to be a marketing tool right? i don't believe this was the founders intentions at all, perhaps a tool to use to further dis-associate our industry fom a defunct NAGS Certification and hopefully break free from the ball and chain that is for all intents and purposes a BUSINESS, let's cut to the chase and call it for what it really is A FOR PROFIT BUSINESS.

In order for any rules installation techniques practices good or bad there must be compliance, at all times not just when somebody is watching. Today's problems are a direct result of doing more for less - not charging properly - not having values don't blame it all on the hacks they don't usually run the companies in this industry and are less associated with the operating practices of most bus. they just hear the adda-boys when they install 10+ jobs in a day from some yahoo who thinks this is great.

SBOK

May 1st, 2008 - 10:06 AM

Re: AGRSS and Insurance

AHAG

You said you will drop lynx is they require AGRSS cert. Will you stop working for insurance comapnies if they are the ones requiring it? What if they reduce their preferred shops down to a smaller group like some have already done in the body shop field will you fight to be on eof those shops or will you have already dropped them?
Just curious if you have thought about that?

SBOK

May 1st, 2008 - 10:12 AM

Re: AGRSS and Insurance

the fixer,

In one of my post above I stated

"AGRSS creates accountability, but those wihout integrity will never be accountable."

IT is not a fix all, but al least there is a standard that most agree is on track.

This country has millions of laws, but not everyone follows them. does that mean we should eliminate all the laws?

As long as there are people without intergrity this problem will exist. The only way to stop it to make them accountable. How do we make them accountable? Now answer that question without stepping on toes!!!!

This country can't even agree, right now, on if everyone has to follow the law or not!!!!

J Armstead

May 1st, 2008 - 11:00 AM

Re: AGRSS and Insurance

Webmaster... there's really no need to apologize.

Just like at I-CAR, there are many people that work very hard (on their own time and dime) to move this industry in a more forward position.

You just need to understand that just because AGRSS manages to move the industry 1 step forward doesn't mean that there aren't other forces at work (who don't mind moving everyone 2 steps back) who wouldn't pay for the proper AGRSS technique or won't accept the liability for what passes off as "industry standard."

With regard to the sister industry (collision repair), I will forget more than most will know after 30 years of seeing everything there is to see.

Believe me, I-CAR and AGRSS will have little impact when it comes to being properly compensated/paid for assuming the liability for the repair/replacement.